Trivia 3

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by nopachunts

2 outs so far.

I think you mean 3.

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I think you mean 3.

CecilOne, you are correct, I didn't read far enough: "throws to first for the out." My apoligies.

I have had this play once in softball and twice in baseball. In one of the baseball games, F2 picked up the ball, I declared R3 out, and the catcher waited to for R3 to come to the plate to tag him not realizing the runner was already out.

In the other baseball game, as soon as F2 picked up the ball, the DC started hollering to F2 to throw the ball to 1B for the DP. After play relaxed, the OC wanted to know why F3 was out because F2 didn't step on the plate.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by nopachunts

CecilOne, you are correct, I didn't read far enough: "throws to first for the out." My apoligies.

I have had this play once in softball and twice in baseball.

Wow, THREE times! I've never seen it happen. Heck, I can't even recall ever seeing a batted ball stay on the plate.

What I did have that requires similar thinking was this play: Ground ball to F6, and her throw to first is dropped by F3. The ball land at F3's feet, and she puts her bare hand on top of the ball with her fingers around it, but she doesn't pick it up. That's the position she's in when the BR reaches and touches first base.

I ruled the BR out because I felt F3 had control of the ball when she wrapped her hand around it. The fact that the ball was on the ground had no bearing on the play, since the ground wasn't helping her maintain that control.

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Wow, THREE times! I've never seen it happen. Heck, I can't even recall ever seeing a batted ball stay on the plate.

This is my 17th year. The first 11 years was spent solely doing SB and BB in youth leagues, 15 and under. You will see more crapola in one year of youth ball than in 3 years of HS and above.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by nopachunts

This is my 17th year. The first 11 years was spent solely doing SB and BB in youth leagues, 15 and under. You will see more crapola in one year of youth ball than in 3 years of HS and above.

That is the truth.

Rita

[ASA Ump MN]

I'm with Mike so far! I don't believe he has established control.....

So would you guys give a fielder a force-out if he reached down, grabbed the ball ON the ground, never lifting it, while his foot was touching the bag.

[ASA Ump MN]

Manny is a lot better umpire than me and I've learned a lot from him. But I disagree a ball on the ground whether trapped by bare hand or in the outer webbing of a glove is control or an out.
I don't have control until it's picked up off the ground on the ops question. No force at home 2 outs!

But I've been wrong before...

[Umpteenth]

IMJ, picking up the ball from the plate establishes control. However, the ball is no longer on the plate, and a separate action is required to record the force at home (either re-touching the plate with the ball or stepping on the plate would be fine).

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Umpteenth

IMJ, picking up the ball from the plate establishes control. However, the ball is no longer on the plate, and a separate action is required to record the force at home (either re-touching the plate with the ball or stepping on the plate would be fine).

How is that possible? If picking up the ball establishes control, then there is a (albeit very small) period of time where the ball is controlled and still touching the plate.

[ASA Ump MN]

Thanks Andy!

"IMJ, picking up the ball from the plate establishes control. However, the ball is no longer on the plate, and a separate action is required to record the force at home (either re-touching the plate with the ball or stepping on the plate would be fine)."

That's what my UIC just told me so I'm going with that..

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by ASA Ump MN

Thanks Andy!

"IMJ, picking up the ball from the plate establishes control. However, the ball is no longer on the plate, and a separate action is required to record the force at home (either re-touching the plate with the ball or stepping on the plate would be fine)."

That's what my UIC just told me so I'm going with that..

Then ask your UIC this ... if a player has the ball in a bare hand, dives for the base to beat a runner and lands with only the ball touching the base - is that runner out (assume a force or first base)?

If you have a different answer here - justify that within the context of the rules.

When the player lifts the ball, they demonstrate that they had control of the ball while it was on the ground being picked up. If they did not have control when they began to lift their hand, the ball would come out.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Umpteenth

IMJ, picking up the ball from the plate establishes control. However, the ball is no longer on the plate, and a separate action is required to record the force at home (either re-touching the plate with the ball or stepping on the plate would be fine).

Still disagree with you, but this got me thinking... F3 takes a throw from F6 ahead of the runner and traps it against the dirt with her foot on the bag. In a) the batter-runner crosses before the ball is picked up. In b) the BR crosses after the ball is picked up. In Fed I have an out in b only. In ASA in a, I'm asking the fielder to demonstrate control of the ball. If she can do that cleanly, I have an out.

Now, wouldn't the same thing apply at the plate. Bases loaded, ball lands on the plate and the catcher can't find it. As the runner is about to get home the catcher grabs the ball and simply holds it against the plate. After the runner slides home she pulls it cleanly off the plate. I've got an out in ASA and no out in Fed, yes?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by youngump

Still disagree with you, but this got me thinking... F3 takes a throw from F6 ahead of the runner and traps it against the dirt with her foot on the bag. In a) the batter-runner crosses before the ball is picked up. In b) the BR crosses after the ball is picked up. In Fed I have an out in b only. In ASA in a, I'm asking the fielder to demonstrate control of the ball. If she can do that cleanly, I have an out.

Now, wouldn't the same thing apply at the plate. Bases loaded, ball lands on the plate and the catcher can't find it. As the runner is about to get home the catcher grabs the ball and simply holds it against the plate. After the runner slides home she pulls it cleanly off the plate. I've got an out in ASA and no out in Fed, yes?

I was with you right until "and no out in fed"... why the difference?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I was with you right until "and no out in fed"... why the difference?

Well, I definitely put a question mark at the end of it. But if a tag of the plate with the foot doesn't count unless you show control first then why should a tag of the plate with the ball. You have to show that you had control during the tag by cleaning picking up the ball in time.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by ASA Ump MN

I'm with Mike so far! I don't believe he has established control.....

So would you guys give a fielder a force-out if he reached down, grabbed the ball ON the ground, never lifting it, while his foot was touching the bag.

Nope.....Lifting the ball is what demonstrates control.

If the ball is on the ground and the fielder puts his hand on top of it, I can't tell if he has control or not. When he lifts the ball, that demonstrates control. As I said before, control started when he gripped the ball, but was not demonstrated to me until the ball was lifted. If the fielder never lifts the ball, I can't tell if he has control or not, so the benefit of that doubt goes to the offense.