Need Help On Rule

[celebur]

Originally Posted by cal9323

I can tell you 100% that if he did not touch the ball there is NO WAY that ball would have gone under the fence.

That is irrelevant to the rule. What matters is (1) did he have possession or was he still playing a batted ball, and (2) did he do this intentionally or not.

If the ball's status was still a batted ball, and if the umpire ruled this was unintentional, then the award for this is a 'book-rule double' (not a ground-rule double).

Sometimes, it may seem that the rules burn one team or the other. In this case, you think the offense got robbed of additional bases. There are other scenarios where the defense will think the offense got more bases than they deserved. But the ruling is the same.

[DeputyUICHousto]

Originally Posted by celebur

'book-rule double' (not a ground-rule double).

Please see Rules Supplement...#26 I believe...its "Ground Rule Double"

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by cal9323

In all honesty ... it was a close call. Just not sure why he would slide to get the ball in the first place. That is what made it look odd.

Like I said, runner was rounding third at the time. The runner scored when his hands when up (for the ground rule double).

Just seemed shady to me.

Sigh....

You came here asking for a ruling on a play. Deputy is trying very hard to get you to answer the KEY question that needs to be answered to give you the right answer. Let me ask you this... If your runner hit a grounder, and ended up in an extremely close play at first, and you asked the umpire if your guy was safe or out, and he said, "In all honestly, it was a close call" - would you consider that an answer?

I know ... you're not an umpire ... but an umpire MUST know the answer to the question you're being asked in order to rule properly. You were there. We were not. So you must provide the answer. Or we cannot answer with the proper ruling.

"I can tell you 100% that if he did not touch the ball there is NO WAY that ball would have gone under the fence. " Please understand - this is ENTIRELY irrelevant to the situation at hand. Complain about what the rule is to someone else - we don't have the latitude to insert our personal choice of fairness on every situation ... we have the rulebook - and there is a rule to cover your situation. Fair or not - it is what the organization who created the rules you play under has decided will be fair in the majority of cases. There are a good number of rules that, when used in an extreme minority of situations, will seem "unfair" - but without them, we have anarchy.

[cal9323]

Okay. Like I said, I will just accidentally kick the ball under the fence when it gets past me and let the official decide if it was "intentional" or not. Worth a shot according to the "rule".

Thanks for letting me know the rule. I do appreciate the help. Just sad that play was the last play in the championship game. We went back and next person popped out to end game.

[DeputyUICHousto]

Originally Posted by cal9323

Okay. Like I said, I will just accidentally kick the ball under the fence when it gets past me and let the official decide if it was "intentional" or not. Worth a shot according to the "rule".

Thanks for letting me know the rule. I do appreciate the help. Just sad that play was the last play in the championship game. We went back and next person popped out to end game.

Sometimes it's difficult to get children to understand.

[cal9323]

I said I understand the rule. Just don't agree with it.

Thanks

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by cal9323

Okay. Like I said, I will just accidentally kick the ball under the fence when it gets past me and let the official decide if it was "intentional" or not. Worth a shot according to the "rule".

Thanks for letting me know the rule. I do appreciate the help. Just sad that play was the last play in the championship game. We went back and next person popped out to end game.

If cheating is your bag, feel free.

I, for one, hope you try it, and film it, and post it here. Trying to "accidentally" kick something with enough precision as to get it out of play would be an impressive feat. More likely you'll give the trail runner extra bases than anything else. (And if you do manage to get it out, I suspect the umpire's going to see how precise you had to kick that ball and rule it intentional).

Hope you didn't blame the officials for your loss.

[DeputyUICHousto]

Originally Posted by cal9323

I said I understand the rule. Just don't agree with it.

Thanks

That's not what you said...my advice would be to grow up and just play the game.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by cal9323

Guy on first base.
Batter hits ball up the middle.

Runner is rounding third. Batter is rounding second.
The defensive player in outfield slid to get ball and kicked it under the fence.
(probably wouldn't have made it to fence if not batted).

Where do the runners go?

It depends. If the impetus which caused the ball to leave playable territory was that of the batted ball deflecting off the player, it is a GRD, as previously noted.

If the player's kick was the impetus which propelled the ball out of play, it is two bases from the runners' location at the time of the kick.

July 2009 ASA Rules Clarifications:

PLAY: With no outs and R1 on 2B, B2 hits a line drive to F7. R1 is off on the hit and headed toward 3B when F7 misses the sinking line drive and knocks the ball forward on the ground in front of him. While running in and trying to scoop up the ball, F7 kicks the ball into the 3B dugout. When the ball entered the 3B dugout, R1 is two steps from 3B and B2 is not yet to 1B. Which bases should R1 and B2 be awarded?

RULING: R1 is awarded home and B2 is awarded 2B. The ball being kicked into dead ball territory would be treated the same as if F7 threw the ball into dead ball territory. Each runner would be awarded two bases from the time the ball left F7’s foot. (Rule 8, Section 5G)

[cal9323]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

If the player's kick was the impetus which propelled the ball out of play, it is two bases from the runners' location at the time of the kick.

^ it was ... his kick knocked it out of play. The ball was essentially stopped when he slid after it. When he slid, he booted it under the fence "propelling the ball out of play"

[cal9323]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

It depends. If the impetus which caused the ball to leave playable territory was that of the batted ball deflecting off the player, it is a GRD, as previously noted.

If the player's kick was the impetus which propelled the ball out of play, it is two bases from the runners' location at the time of the kick.

July 2009 ASA Rules Clarifications:

PLAY: With no outs and R1 on 2B, B2 hits a line drive to F7. R1 is off on the hit and headed toward 3B when F7 misses the sinking line drive and knocks the ball forward on the ground in front of him. While running in and trying to scoop up the ball, F7 kicks the ball into the 3B dugout. When the ball entered the 3B dugout, R1 is two steps from 3B and B2 is not yet to 1B. Which bases should R1 and B2 be awarded?

RULING: R1 is awarded home and B2 is awarded 2B. The ball being kicked into dead ball territory would be treated the same as if F7 threw the ball into dead ball territory. Each runner would be awarded two bases from the time the ball left F7’s foot. (Rule 8, Section 5G)

Sounds similar to our game. Interesting ... it didn't sound like he had "possession" of the ball in that case either.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

It depends. If the impetus which caused the ball to leave playable territory was that of the batted ball deflecting off the player, it is a GRD, as previously noted.

If the player's kick was the impetus which propelled the ball out of play, it is two bases from the runners' location at the time of the kick.

July 2009 ASA Rules Clarifications:

PLAY: With no outs and R1 on 2B, B2 hits a line drive to F7. R1 is off on the hit and headed toward 3B when F7 misses the sinking line drive and knocks the ball forward on the ground in front of him. While running in and trying to scoop up the ball, F7 kicks the ball into the 3B dugout. When the ball entered the 3B dugout, R1 is two steps from 3B and B2 is not yet to 1B. Which bases should R1 and B2 be awarded?

RULING: R1 is awarded home and B2 is awarded 2B. The ball being kicked into dead ball territory would be treated the same as if F7 threw the ball into dead ball territory. Each runner would be awarded two bases from the time the ball left F7’s foot. (Rule 8, Section 5G)

Mike, that play doesn't really differentiate well - as the runners are getting 2 bases from TOP, and also 2 bases from TOK (time of kick? ). Since neither runner had advanced a base, the bases at TOP and TOK are the same.

Incidentally, 8-5G refers to live overthrown balls and blocked balls... where is the rule that tells us to treat an unintentionally kicked ball as a thrown ball?

[cal9323]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The ball being kicked into dead ball territory would be treated the same as if F7 threw the ball into dead ball territory. Each runner would be awarded two bases from the time the ball left F7’s foot. (Rule 8, Section 5G)

Interesting.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by cal9323

Well, like I said ... I guess when a ball gets past me, I will just slide and "accidentally" kick the ball under the fence.

I am not an official ... that is why I am asking.

Gee, we never would have guessed that.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Mike, that play doesn't really differentiate well - as the runners are getting 2 bases from TOP, and also 2 bases from TOK (time of kick? ). Since neither runner had advanced a base, the bases at TOP and TOK are the same.

Your point?

Incidentally, 8-5G refers to live overthrown balls and blocked balls... where is the rule that tells us to treat an unintentionally kicked ball as a thrown ball?

Where is the rule saying the runner has to go to 1st, 2nd, 3rd and then home in order to score a run? Then tell me where the rule is that tells us what a legal slide or errant throw is?