Missing Player in Lineup

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I'm obviously showing my failure to fully grasp the DP/Flex rule when it comes to certain subtleties.

The reason I ask if it was considered an unreported substitution of sorts is because most coaches will tell me when they're bringing in the DP to play defense for someone other than the Flex. I know that the rules don't include the entry of the DP on defense for someone other than the Flex as a substitution. But I wasn't sure if it still had to be reported (similar to when a courtesy runner enters the game).

Live and learn...

Best simplification I can think of, regarding the sub part of this ... is that there are 10 positions on the field... P, C, 1B, 2B, SS, 3B, LF, CF, RF, DP. Moving from one to the other is just a movement of players in the field, and only requires reporting at NCAA level (just like a move from LF to 1B is required to be reported at NCAA level). We all know where the 9 positions are... the DP's "position" is constructed of wood and sits in the shade. As long as the player listed as FLEX is taking up one of the 9 positions, and not the comfy DP position, there has been no substitution. The Flex cannot bat without dropping to 9... so she's not allowed to rest in the shade.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by Manny A

(snip)I know that the rules don't include the entry of the DP on defense for someone other than the Flex as a substitution. But I wasn't sure if it still had to be reported (similar to when a courtesy runner enters the game).

Live and learn...

FYI, NCAA requires the reporting of defensive changes (Just a little more to remember)


Also, many umpires, after accepting and confirming line-ups official from both coaches will then ask, "Do you have any changes to make at this time"
Some coaches like to submit the line up with a DP/FLEx and imediately substitute the position (dropping to 9, but having the ability to go back to 10).

[derwil]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Also, many umpires, after accepting and confirming line-ups official from both coaches will then ask, "Do you have any changes to make at this time"
Some coaches like to submit the line up with a DP/FLEx and imediately substitute the position (dropping to 9, but having the ability to go back to 10).

Starting to become very common among good teams who know how to use the DP/Flex system. Important to ask the question - especially at higher levels.

[CecilOne]

How many times a game do we or should we ask a coach if they have any subs?


IOW, why ask at all, it's their responsibility to manage the lineup.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by derwil

Starting to become very common among good teams who know how to use the DP/Flex system. Important to ask the question - especially at higher levels.

My handling of this is "The lineups are now official. Are there any changes at this time?"

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by Steve M

My handling of this is "The lineups are now official. Are there any changes at this time?"

Shouldn't you ask about changes BEFORE the lineups are official?

Rita

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by Rita C

Shouldn't you ask about changes BEFORE the lineups are official?

Rita

Absolutely not, Rita.
Before the lineups are official, I may verify that something is as that speciific coach wants it to be, but before the lineups are oficial, nothing is official. Coaches who make changes along thes lines understand this.
And that's why I wait until the lineups are official before asking if there are any changes.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by Rita C

Shouldn't you ask about changes BEFORE the lineups are official?

Rita

To add to what Steve said..
The procedure I follow is to:
1)receive the home team line up, look it over to verify that it is correct (no dupe numbers, DP/Flex, F1/F2 positions are marked (if necessary), substitutes listed, names displayed correctly, etc.
2) Return the Line up to the Home team and ask that she/he checks it over and verifies that it is correct.
3) Repeat the process for the visiting team.

At this point if they have any changes, the are just pencil changes, not official (as the lune-ups are not official yet). Any changes here do NOT count as substitutions.

4) After receiving the verified line-ups, I then make the same statement as Steve M. "The lineups are now official. Are there any changes at this time?"

5) Any changes to the line up now are Substitutions....

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

To add to what Steve said..
The procedure I follow is to:
1)receive the home team line up, look it over to verify that it is correct (no dupe numbers, DP/Flex, F1/F2 positions are marked (if necessary), substitutes listed, names displayed correctly, etc.
2) Return the Line up to the Home team and ask that she/he checks it over and verifies that it is correct.
3) Repeat the process for the visiting team.

At this point if they have any changes, the are just pencil changes, not official (as the lune-ups are not official yet). Any changes here do NOT count as substitutions.

4) After receiving the verified line-ups, I then make the same statement as Steve M. "The lineups are now official. Are there any changes at this time?"

5) Any changes to the line up now are Substitutions....

I do all that. So what we are doing is defining "changes".

My point is, if we've just talked about if the lineups are correct, and they've had a chance to correct anything, why would they want to make changes?



Rita

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by Rita C

I do all that. So what we are doing is defining "changes".

My point is, if we've just talked about if the lineups are correct, and they've had a chance to correct anything, why would they want to make changes?



Rita

Because AFTER the line-ups are official, they are not corrections - they are legal substitutions. And has been stated it is not uncommon for some teams to want to make a substitution (usually involving the DP/FLEX) before the teams take the ifeld or the first batter bats.
This is just a simple way of lettng the coach know that now is the time...

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Because AFTER the line-ups are official, they are not corrections - they are legal substitutions. And has been stated it is not uncommon for some teams to want to make a substitution (usually involving the DP/FLEX) before the teams take the ifeld or the first batter bats.
This is just a simple way of lettng the coach know that now is the time...

Sigh.

So before the lineups become official, if he changes who is in the lineup, it is a "correction".

After, the lineups are official, changes are "substitutions".

Like I said, defining "changes".

Rita

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Originally Posted by Rita C

Sigh.

So before the lineups become official, if he changes who is in the lineup, it is a "correction".

After, the lineups are official, changes are "substitutions".

Like I said, defining "changes".

Rita

I am interested too. I assume the lineup handed to me is official. Anything after that is not a correction.....but a substitution.

Joel

[ronald]

Originally Posted by Gulf Coast Blue

I am interested too. I assume the lineup handed to me is official. Anything after that is not a correction.....but a substitution.

Joel

I believe it is not official until you have followed the procedures in the rule book. Thus the initial hand over is not official and you can make a correction that is not a substitution.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by ronald

I believe it is not official until you have followed the procedures in the rule book. Thus the initial hand over is not official and you can make a correction that is not a substitution.

Speaking NCAA....
5.7 Pregame Meeting
5.7.2......."The umpire shall review each team's lineup card with its coach to be sure it is complete and shall provide one last opportunity for changes* without the changes being charged as substitutions. Once returned to the umpire, each team's lineup is official. In the event of a subsequent change**, the plate umpire shall report the substitution(s) to the opposing team, official scorer......"

It's been my experience that....

* these are changes that generally involve things like a uniform #, defensive position, correctly listing the subs, etc.
and.....
**these "subsequent changes" by coaches at the pre-game meeting 99% of the time involve the DP/Flex. Maybe not the norm, but it occurs with enough frequency that it's certainly not the exception.

While neither the NCAA rule book or Manual requires that after receiving the lineups back from the coaches making them official we ask each coach "do you have any changes at this time?".....in the conferences I work it's SOP for the PU to ask.

[CecilOne]

"The umpire shall review each team's lineup card with its coach to be sure it is complete and shall provide one last opportunity for changes* without the changes being charged as substitutions. Once returned to the umpire, each team's lineup is official."

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Standard everywhere I ump.