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Old Thu Jul 26, 2012, 04:21pm
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Taking the signal

Taking the signal has been discussed fairly recently on a couple of other sites. Just now watching some Gold pool games and came across this. Opinions on legal or illegal pitch? Excuse some of the jumping on screen, was trying not to have a whole bunch of unneeded video.

pitching - YouTube
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Old Thu Jul 26, 2012, 04:28pm
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I can't tell - is she bringing her hands together or is she just hiding the ball from the batter to hide her grip. If it is the latter and the hands aren't together, I've got nothing.
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Old Thu Jul 26, 2012, 04:33pm
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I'm not sure what MN means there (MN - she's SUPPOSED to put her hands together - and there's no double touch after that... if she's not in the glove and is just hiding her hand, then she never does come together!), but I see nothing remotely illegal here. Pretty standard pitching. And definitely not quick pitching (which is what "taking the signal from the catcher" is about in reality).

PS - I think the runner was safe at 2nd!!
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Old Thu Jul 26, 2012, 04:56pm
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Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
I'm not sure what MN means there (MN - she's SUPPOSED to put her hands together - and there's no double touch after that... if she's not in the glove and is just hiding her hand, then she never does come together!), but I see nothing remotely illegal here. Pretty standard pitching. And definitely not quick pitching (which is what "taking the signal from the catcher" is about in reality).

PS - I think the runner was safe at 2nd!!
Agree the call at 2nd looks questionable

But what first drew my attention was the PU coming out through the RH BB.

Really couldn't tell if the pitch was legal or not, but from what little I could see it didn't seem like she spent any time on the PP with her hands separated.
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Old Thu Jul 26, 2012, 04:58pm
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This is what I have been seeing more and more of. The pitcher taking the signal back behind the pitching plate which is perfectly legal, but then stepping on and immediately bringing the hands together. An inning later she was even worse than this, bases were loaded and hands were already coming together as she was stepping on.
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Old Thu Jul 26, 2012, 05:26pm
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I have seen more of this style this year, as well.

The hands are not at her side when she steps on and they are coming together quickly

The fact that she does hold them together and is clearly not quick pitching makes it ok in my mind but, I am not sure I should have this opinion.

Thoughts?
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Old Thu Jul 26, 2012, 05:55pm
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Agree that she is making no attempt to quick pitch, however, 8-1-D clearly states they must take or simulate taking a signal with the hands separated.
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Old Thu Jul 26, 2012, 08:41pm
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Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
But what first drew my attention was the PU coming out through the RH BB.
And does ASA have a holding zone in front of the circle?
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Old Fri Jul 27, 2012, 07:45am
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I had a pitcher who was very similar (although much shorter time interval from the time she stepped on to the time of delivery) earlier this year. I called her for an IP a couple of times because in those instances, her hands appeared to come together as she stepped on. After the second or third one, the coach came out to say her hands aren't together. I explained that from where the batter and I am, it appears they are together and the purpose of the rule requiring a pitcher to step on with their hands separated is to avoid a quick pitch.

On this pitcher in the video, I don't think I would call her on it. The difference being (at least in the examples in the video), her hands are separate for a split second when she steps on and she takes plenty of time before beginning any movement. Is it technically an IP? Yes. Would I call it? Not from what I've seen.
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Old Fri Jul 27, 2012, 08:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
I'm not sure what MN means there (MN - she's SUPPOSED to put her hands together - and there's no double touch after that... if she's not in the glove and is just hiding her hand, then she never does come together!), but I see nothing remotely illegal here. Pretty standard pitching. And definitely not quick pitching (which is what "taking the signal from the catcher" is about in reality).

PS - I think the runner was safe at 2nd!!
I apologize - I wasn't very clear with my statement.

From the video, I can't tell if she is bringing her hands together and then simulating taking the sign or if she is putting the glove in front of her pitching hand to prevent the batter from seeing the ball and how she is gripping the ball.

If she is just hiding her grip and she does bring her hands together prior to delivering the ball, she is legal. When pitchers do this, sometimes it is very difficult to tell if their hands are separated or if they are together. My belief is that if we don't know she is illegal, then she is legal.
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Old Fri Jul 27, 2012, 11:36am
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Originally Posted by MNBlue View Post
I apologize - I wasn't very clear with my statement.

From the video, I can't tell if she is bringing her hands together and then simulating taking the sign or if she is putting the glove in front of her pitching hand to prevent the batter from seeing the ball and how she is gripping the ball.

If she is just hiding her grip and she does bring her hands together prior to delivering the ball, she is legal. When pitchers do this, sometimes it is very difficult to tell if their hands are separated or if they are together. My belief is that if we don't know she is illegal, then she is legal.
Though I do NOT want to get into the "presenting the ball" discussion, remember the reason the rule is in place. It is to give the batter a procedure to know when to prepare for the pitch. The prelude to the pitch includes taking a position with the hands separated, bringing the hands together. Only then can the pitch start when the hands separate.

No matter what the reason, the first part of that isn't evident to the two who need to see it, the batter and umpire.

And when on the plate and see what appears to be the hands together, do we permit that even though one may be behind the other and not together?

As I've told players before, if you fooled the other guy, you probably fooled me, too, but it is my judgment that counts
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Old Sun Jul 29, 2012, 01:52pm
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Originally Posted by Jake26 View Post
And does ASA have a holding zone in front of the circle?
no they do not but the almost all umpires at the gold were college umps too. i was the only one who was probably not. i did not talk to all of em but to the ones i did, they did college ball.
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Old Sun Jul 29, 2012, 01:54pm
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Originally Posted by MNBlue View Post
I apologize - I wasn't very clear with my statement.

From the video, I can't tell if she is bringing her hands together and then simulating taking the sign or if she is putting the glove in front of her pitching hand to prevent the batter from seeing the ball and how she is gripping the ball.

If she is just hiding her grip and she does bring her hands together prior to delivering the ball, she is legal. When pitchers do this, sometimes it is very difficult to tell if their hands are separated or if they are together. My belief is that if we don't know she is illegal, then she is legal.
this was called a few times in the games i umped. the 3rd base ump called it in my plate game. forgot to discuss this in post game but the evaluator did not make an issue of it when the 3rd base ump explain his illegal pitch call.
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Old Mon Jul 30, 2012, 09:36am
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That appears to be one fine plate umpire.
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Old Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:19am
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Originally Posted by ronald View Post
no they do not but the almost all umpires at the gold were college umps too. i was the only one who was probably not. i did not talk to all of em but to the ones i did, they did college ball.
You weren't the only one that doesn't do college out there. I know of at least two others that do not umpire college ball that were there!
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