Falling Onto the Fielder...and Not Getting Up

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by nopachunts

Emphasis mine. What was the BR doing? Was the BR making an effort to get off of F3? If the BR is taking her sweet time to get off of F3, I'm calling time and keeping R1 at 2B. If the BR got off of F3 and F3 continues to lay there crying, R1 can continue until no further play can be made.

What rule would you use?

The Interference definition in ASA requires the fielder to "[attempt] to execute a play." Since F4 wasn't making any attempt whatsoever to get up, I didn't feel a call of Interference was appropriate.

Perhaps there's another ASA rule that penalizes a retired runner for doing what the BR did in my game. But I can't think of one.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

What rule would you use?

The Interference definition in ASA requires the fielder to "[attempt] to execute a play." Since F4 wasn't making any attempt whatsoever to get up, I didn't feel a call of Interference was appropriate.

Perhaps there's another ASA rule that penalizes a retired runner for doing what the BR did in my game. But I can't think of one.

Nah, you're good here. Since you keep noting that F4 made no attempt to move, I assume that had she made even the slightest effort to continue with the play, you would have made an INT call at that point IF there was a play with which to interfere.

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by Manny A

What rule would you use?

The rule would be interference if F3 attempted to get up and the BR continued to lay on top of her. What the BR do, you didn't ever say if the BR made an immediate or delayed attempt to get off of F3. That would make the difference if I would rule interference or to let the play continue as you did.

[CecilOne]

Would any of you treat this differently with older players?
I would not, but can't imagine the "no effort" by the fielder scenario.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by nopachunts

The rule would be interference if F3 attempted to get up and the BR continued to lay on top of her. What the BR do, you didn't ever say if the BR made an immediate or delayed attempt to get off of F3. That would make the difference if I would rule interference or to let the play continue as you did.

I did say in my original post when the retired BR finally got off of F4. I wrote, "I still don't call Time because it doesn't appear to me that the results of the crash are serious enough to warrant it. The retired BR finally gets up off F4, and F4 continues to lie there whimpering. The third base coach sends R1 home, and she scores easily.

Again there was never an attempt by F4 to make a play. It didn't happen while the retired BR was on her, and it didn't happen after she finally got off her. She stayed on the ground until all play ended, I finally called Time, and the coaches came onto the field.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by nopachunts

The rule would be interference if F3 attempted to get up and the BR continued to lay on top of her. What the BR do, you didn't ever say if the BR made an immediate or delayed attempt to get off of F3. That would make the difference if I would rule interference or to let the play continue as you did.

You are correct given the bolded part of your response.

However, that is not what was described in the OP. If F4 is making absolutely no effort to get up and/or make a play, you have no rule basis to stop play and keep the runner at second base. The only exception would be if you thought a player had a serious injury.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Andy

You are correct given the bolded part of your response.

However, that is not what was described in the OP. If F4 is making absolutely no effort to get up and/or make a play, you have no rule basis to stop play and keep the runner at second base. The only exception would be if you thought a player had a serious injury.

This is 10U rec we are talking about and not a 18U Gold National Tournament. If F4 is lying on the ground crying with the BR lying on top of her kill the play and award R1 the base you believe should would have obtained (Rule 4-10). By rule we can kill this and we should if there is any doubt about the girl being ok or not.

Remember what may seem to you to be nothing major as far as contact may be more severe to her. In this scenario I am giving the benefit of the doubt to F4.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by rwest

This is 10U rec we are talking about and not a 18U Gold National Tournament. If F4 is lying on the ground crying with the BR lying on top of her kill the play and award R1 the base you believe should would have obtained (Rule 4-10). By rule we can kill this and we should if there is any doubt about the girl being ok or not.

Remember what may seem to you to be nothing major as far as contact may be more severe to her. In this scenario I am giving the benefit of the doubt to F4.

This can and will be debated ad naseum.
Bottom line it is the umpire on the field evaluating the situation and making his call.
I have no problem with the decision made on the field.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

This can and will be debated ad naseum.
Bottom line it is the umpire on the field evaluating the situation and making his call.
I have no problem with the decision made on the field.

I, too, will go with the officials judgement on the field. All I am saying is we are talking about 10 year olds here! Common sense needs to prevail. Any time player safety is a concern we should, when reasonable to do so, err on the side of caution. This can be taken to an extreme and I'm not advocating that. But come on. There was contact and the player was lying on top of F4 in a 10U REC GAME! The official said he didn't think there was much to the contact. Maybe to an adult it wasn't much, but that same contact to a 10U could be more severe.

All I am saying is take the age of the kids into account. Would you call time if this same thing happened in a pee-wee game or T-Ball?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by rwest

All I am saying is take the age of the kids into account. Would you call time if this same thing happened in a pee-wee game or T-Ball?

Well, I personally wouldn't umpire a T-Ball game. Heaven help those leagues that feel they need umpires for their T-Ball programs!

I fully understand my role out there when it comes to player injuries during a live ball. And I judged that there was nothing wrong with F4 which, as it turned out, was correct.

Also, while this was a rec league game, the two teams involved are very competitive that I've seen quite often in weekend ASA tournaments. They use this league as tune-ups for their tournament participation. The game, in toto, was better played than many high school JV games I've umpired.

But that's really not the reason why I posted this. I wanted to get an answer purely from a rules' perspective, and I got that.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by rwest

Remember what may seem to you to be nothing major as far as contact may be more severe to her. In this scenario I am giving the benefit of the doubt to F4.

Which is why I dislike the rule. Many, if not most, are not medically trained. I actually find it humorous that all these ailments were divulged after there was a problem.

Unfortunately, in the first couple of years of this I experienced LOADS of coaches and parents start screaming and hollering the moment Lil' Susie said ouch. OTOH, I've also experienced players telling their coaches and parents to shut up and sit down when this started. Like I said, I'm hesitating and waiting until I see something which gives me cause to be concerned.

[nopachunts]

If F3 never attempted to get up either with the BR on top or not, I completely agree with Manny A's ruling on the field. If F3 is so easily "injured", maybe she be the DP and play the outfield. Just saying, LOL.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Which is why I dislike the rule. Many, if not most, are not medically trained. I actually find it humorous that all these ailments were divulged after there was a problem.

Unfortunately, in the first couple of years of this I experienced LOADS of coaches and parents start screaming and hollering the moment Lil' Susie said ouch. OTOH, I've also experienced players telling their coaches and parents to shut up and sit down when this started. Like I said, I'm hesitating and waiting until I see something which gives me cause to be concerned.

This can be take to an extreme. However, I do believe the age of the kids involved should be taken into consideration. Besides, by rule, the umpire can call time to see to the kids condition and award the bases he/she felt they would have made, which could be home in this scenario. The offense gets a score out of it and the defense gets to check on their player in a more timely fashion.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by rwest

This can be take to an extreme. However, I do believe the age of the kids involved should be taken into consideration. Besides, by rule, the umpire can call time to see to the kids condition and award the bases he/she felt they would have made, which could be home in this scenario. The offense gets a score out of it and the defense gets to check on their player in a more timely fashion.

And again, I'm not a medical professional and, unfortunately, this is taken to the extreme and there are players who are actually COACHED to do this type of thing. Just where do we draw the line?

As an umpire, I'm not there for the players, I'm there for the game.

RANT

The game has risks, period. If anyone does not want to be exposed to those risks, even 10yo, maybe they should find something else to do. If there is a fragile or sick individual, common sense should tell a parent to not put that child in harm's way, not throw her out there and expect the rest of the world to adjust.

And AGAIN until recently, the game played out for decades and you dealt with the injury later and that was WITHOUT safety bases, cages on helmets, etc. Yes, it's dangerous, but answer me this, who put the players in the situation here? Wasn't any softball organization, it wasn't the umpires, it wasn't the field owners. It IS the parents and coaches. Remember when there were special rules for 10U? Why were they changed? Because the parents wanted Lil' Susie to be competitive and be able to demonstrate their on-field prowess. IOW, they were already chasing the carrot.

A few years ago, there was a proposed code change in ASA to create a national championship for 8U level. Thank God, this was shot down, but after persistence from a certain Western state, ASA gave up and allowed that region to have a 8U championship under the ASA banner. Now we are starting to read about 6U ball. GMAFB!

This is real simple. You want a REC game to be called as a REC game, use rules that give you the environment desired. However, if you want to play with Championship Play rules, that is how the game should be officiated. I'm a firm believer that an umpire should give the 10U game the same effort, respect and professionalism as a 18U G game. And remember, the same coaches and parents who want to crucify the umpire for not stopping the game soon enough will be screaming about the 1/4 inch the 10yo foot is off the PP or how the 10yo lost contact with the base when switching feet and demand a LBR violation. However, the teams and leagues cannot have it both ways, either you get a professional umpire or a REC umpire.

JMHO