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Old Tue Jul 10, 2012, 01:51pm
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Mechanic question

I'm just a parent seeing if this is the correct mechanic (?).

2 Outs no one on.
Batter swings and misses for third strike. Ball clearly hits the dirt before the catcher catches it very cleanly. (nice drop ball if i must say).
I know its a D3K as well as the ump. calls strike 3 and nothing else and leaves his right hand up.
catcher rolls the ball to the cirlce, both teams leave the field.

Now my question.

the ump followed the batter (3-5 feet behind) to the dugout with his hand still up. called her out as soon as her foot hit the dugout.
Should he have followed her or just stayed at the plate?
No one knew she wasn't out, but I'm thinking his actions might have let someone figure it out.
I'm just curious if he did the right thing, the call was dead on, no question the D3K.
Althought alot of parents said, suzy caught the ball. Yea she did, right after it hit the dirt.

Thanks
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Old Tue Jul 10, 2012, 02:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg99 View Post
I'm just a parent seeing if this is the correct mechanic (?).

2 Outs no one on.
Batter swings and misses for third strike. Ball clearly hits the dirt before the catcher catches it very cleanly. (nice drop ball if i must say).
I know its a D3K as well as the ump. calls strike 3 and nothing else and leaves his right hand up.
catcher rolls the ball to the cirlce, both teams leave the field.

Now my question.

the ump followed the batter (3-5 feet behind) to the dugout with his hand still up. called her out as soon as her foot hit the dugout.
Should he have followed her or just stayed at the plate?
No one knew she wasn't out, but I'm thinking his actions might have let someone figure it out.
I'm just curious if he did the right thing, the call was dead on, no question the D3K.
Althought alot of parents said, suzy caught the ball. Yea she did, right after it hit the dirt.

Thanks
He should have done nothing differently from his routine strike-three call. He DEFINITELY shouldn't have followed her to the dugout, nor should he have held his call any longer (holding it longer, if anything, indicates that he saw the catcher CATCH the ball and has an out).
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Old Tue Jul 10, 2012, 02:03pm
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Let me add that if his "normal" strike three call includes something like "batters out!", he should obviously omit this... although most here will say he should omit it all the time, not just on D3K!
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Old Tue Jul 10, 2012, 02:46pm
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Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
He should have done nothing differently from his routine strike-three call. He DEFINITELY shouldn't have followed her to the dugout, nor should he have held his call any longer (holding it longer, if anything, indicates that he saw the catcher CATCH the ball and has an out).
I disagree. If the only play I'm interested is knowing whether the batter enters the dugout or is assisted to avoid entering the dugout, why wouldn't I want to move into position to see that. Call strike three, get your arm down and move to see the play.
Also, on my usual strike three, my mask stays on. Here it is coming off.
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Old Tue Jul 10, 2012, 03:02pm
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Originally Posted by youngump View Post
I disagree. If the only play I'm interested is knowing whether the batter enters the dugout or is assisted to avoid entering the dugout, why wouldn't I want to move into position to see that. Call strike three, get your arm down and move to see the play.
Also, on my usual strike three, my mask stays on. Here it is coming off.
Did the ump really need to follow the B to see the dugout entry, or just move if needed to have a good angle?

"my mask stays on. Here it is coming off" does not seem consistent in not giving the call away.
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Old Tue Jul 10, 2012, 03:21pm
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Originally Posted by youngump View Post
I disagree. If the only play I'm interested is knowing whether the batter enters the dugout or is assisted to avoid entering the dugout, why wouldn't I want to move into position to see that. Call strike three, get your arm down and move to see the play.
Also, on my usual strike three, my mask stays on. Here it is coming off.
Wow, that's awful. Might want to speak with your higher-ups on this. Every clinic I've been to (that addresses this) stresses doing as little as possible that might tip off either side. We adjudicate the game - we don't want to affect it if that can be avoided. Both of your actions have a good chance of affection gameplay.
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Old Tue Jul 10, 2012, 03:47pm
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Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
Wow, that's awful. Might want to speak with your higher-ups on this. Every clinic I've been to (that addresses this) stresses doing as little as possible that might tip off either side. We adjudicate the game - we don't want to affect it if that can be avoided. Both of your actions have a good chance of affection gameplay.
Let's eliminate the 2nd concern. No one leaves their mask on between innings; the OP play had two outs, this being the 3rd.

Yes, I know he says he does; not in this case.
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Old Tue Jul 10, 2012, 05:01pm
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Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
(snip)Every clinic I've been to (that addresses this) stresses doing as little as possible that might tip off either side. We adjudicate the game - we don't want to affect it if that can be avoided.
(snip)
Of course it should be noted that NCAA now wants a "safe" call on a third strike not caught.
Right or wrong, I have seen this mechanic used by umpires in ASA, USSSA and NFHS games.

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Old Tue Jul 10, 2012, 06:25pm
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PU should not do anything different, agreed, except NCAA.

Now what about BU? We have a play on, should BU wait for BR to start for 1B or get in a calling position? The latter would be considered a "tell", but it also prevents rushing at the last minute?

Thoughts?
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Old Tue Jul 10, 2012, 08:47pm
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Well with 2 outs, the BU can be moving in most instances to the between inning position, unless already in "B". Or could be moving toward the pitcher's plate to brush it.

In either case, if BU now sees the BR make a break for 1B, BU's already on the move in that general area. No?
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Old Wed Jul 11, 2012, 10:09am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HugoTafurst View Post
Of course it should be noted that NCAA now wants a "safe" call on a third strike not caught.
Right or wrong, I have seen this mechanic used by umpires in ASA, USSSA and NFHS games.

Although I would change one thing with this mechanic, I like the fact that NCAA is letting everyone know that we have a strike three and an uncaught pitch. I would like to see this or some similar type of mechanic in all codes.

If we have a trapped ball on a batted ball, don't we signal or annouce "no catch"? If we have a missed tagged by the defense, don't we announce "No tag" and signal safe? Why can't we tell the offense and the defense that we have a strike three and an uncaught pitch? Other than the reason that it isn't an approved mechanic.
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Old Wed Jul 11, 2012, 01:13pm
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Originally Posted by MNBlue View Post
Although I would change one thing with this mechanic, I like the fact that NCAA is letting everyone know that we have a strike three and an uncaught pitch. I would like to see this or some similar type of mechanic in all codes.

If we have a trapped ball on a batted ball, don't we signal or annouce "no catch"? If we have a missed tagged by the defense, don't we announce "No tag" and signal safe? Why can't we tell the offense and the defense that we have a strike three and an uncaught pitch? Other than the reason that it isn't an approved mechanic.
I agree. The mechanic SHOULD BE that we make a call. This is the only time that for some we are instructed not to tell the world whether a runner is safe or out when it is in doubt whether they are or aren't.

Something as simple as calling the batter out upon a 3rd strike caught, and not calling the batter out on an uncaught one, would seem to be consistent with everything else.

But until they make that change - I do as I'm told.
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Old Wed Jul 11, 2012, 01:38pm
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Originally Posted by MNBlue View Post
Although I would change one thing with this mechanic, I like the fact that NCAA is letting everyone know that we have a strike three and an uncaught pitch. I would like to see this or some similar type of mechanic in all codes.
Could have sworn it was posted in the spring that the NCAA does not prescribe this mechanic.

And who is seeing this signal? Everyone, but the two involved, batter and catcher. My personal opinion is that this signal is meant to "excuse" the PU if the batter and/or catcher do not properly respond to the play at hand which is exactly why it was developed in MLB. A batter was smarter than a catcher and a coach couldn't win the argument as there was no substance to it.

Personally, the more I think about this, the more I lean toward just dumping the 3rd strike rule. The batter failed, end of story.

Quote:
If we have a trapped ball on a batted ball, don't we signal or annouce "no catch"?
Not always

Quote:
If we have a missed tagged by the defense, don't we announce "No tag" and signal safe?
No, not always and in some cases, we are instructed to NOT say that.

Quote:
Why can't we tell the offense and the defense that we have a strike three and an uncaught pitch? Other than the reason that it isn't an approved mechanic.
Again, who are you telling? Those for whom it would be intended are looking the other way by design. The people who will see the signal are already going to be screaming either "run" or "tag her" or "throw it to 1st" long before the umpire makes such a signal. I consider it extraneous and quite possibly, a good possibility for inconsistency since the PU is not always aware the ball was not caught.
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Old Wed Jul 11, 2012, 01:57pm
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Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
And who is seeing this signal? Everyone, but the two involved, batter and catcher.
The signal comes with a verbal: "No catch", which is for the batter and catcher to hear because, as you have pointed out, they don't see the signal.
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Old Wed Jul 11, 2012, 02:09pm
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Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
Wow, that's awful. Might want to speak with your higher-ups on this. Every clinic I've been to (that addresses this) stresses doing as little as possible that might tip off either side. We adjudicate the game - we don't want to affect it if that can be avoided. Both of your actions have a good chance of affection gameplay.
Well SRW usually wanders around to correct me when I get to far off the reservation, so he'll probably be along soon if this is frowned upon here. But I will ask when I get a chance. And yes if it's the third out I suppose my mask is coming off anyway.

But if it's the first or second out, it seems like I'm definitely going to tip at least a little so why not just get the best angle? For that matter at the very least I should turn and watch (or if I have other responsibilities as well I'm going to be looking back and forth). Suppose the batter runner gets almost to the dugout and as she's putting her foot down the coach tells her to run and she gets to first safely. Now the DC calls time and insists she touched something in the dugout when she got there. Don't you want to know for sure?
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