Look back rule

[MikeZ]

For the look back rule, what constitutes a play by the pitcher in the circle? Some umpires will say that a fake throw is a play. Recently I'm hearing that if the pitcher simply walks in the direction of a runner that is a play. Can anyone provide clarity on this?

Thank you!

[tcannizzo]

ASA Rule 8.7.T.
EXCEPTION: The runner will not be declared out if
1. A play is made on any runner. A fake throw is considered a play, [snip]

The way it has been explained is that *ANY* gesture by F1 that could cause a runner to react is enough to take off LBR.

[MikeZ]

So would you say if F1 is walking toward 2B in the circle as R2 just walked and proceeds to 2nd with R1 on 3B. The arm never comes up. Would the walk and look be considered a gesture?

[jwwashburn]

At the ASA National school a few years ago in Ann Arbor...we were instructed that anything that can/will get a reaction from the runner is a play.

Sounds like yours might be a HTBT.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by MikeZ

So would you say if F1 is walking toward 2B in the circle as R2 just walked and proceeds to 2nd with R1 on 3B. The arm never comes up. Would the walk and look be considered a gesture?

Taking you literally, the answer is no.
F1 simply "walking" from one part of the circle to another is not necessarily considered a "gesture" that would constitute a "play".

But a slight shake of the head, would.

[MikeZ]

Very interesting. And yes she literally walked to the back of the circle and I thought for sure the runner on 3rd would be called out on the LBR the explanation was that she was walking and •could• have the momentum to throw it underhand to get the runner going to second. Seems to me too much judgement on this, they should try to tighten this up. His suggestion to me was to check with the umpires before the game what they view as a play to negate the lbr.

[AtlUmpSteve]

"Reasonable Man" theory should prevail. Would any reasonable person have considered the possibility a play was being attempted? Should a reasonable runner have reacted to what the pitcher was doing?

If yes, then that is an attempted play. If not, should have been a LBR violation.

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by MikeZ

So would you say if F1 is walking toward 2B in the circle as R2 just walked and proceeds to 2nd with R1 on 3B. The arm never comes up. Would the walk and look be considered a gesture?

...and I thought for sure the runner on 3rd would be called out on the LBR

Doesn't sound like F1 made a play but as has been stated you have to see it. It is judgement and not sure it needs to be "tightened up".

But not sure why you would have an LBR out here anyway.. R1 is on 3B so she is fine, while the batter-runner who just walked, opted to continue past 1B to 2B. Even if F1s walk to the back of the circle is NOT considered making a play, so far nothing has happened which would trigger an LBR out.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

Doesn't sound like F1 made a play but as has been stated you have to see it. It is judgement and not sure it needs to be "tightened up".

But not sure why you would have an LBR out here anyway.. R1 is on 3B so she is fine, while the batter-runner who just walked, opted to continue past 1B to 2B. Even if F1s walk to the back of the circle is NOT considered making a play, so far nothing has happened which would trigger an LBR out.

If the ball is in the possession of the pitcher in the circle, once R2 reached first base the LBR is in effect.

To the OP, checking to see how they would enforce the LBR will probably get you an answer along the lines of "as described in the book," which will put you no further along than you were before you asked.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

"Reasonable Man" theory should prevail. Would any reasonable person have considered the possibility a play was being attempted? Should a reasonable runner have reacted to what the pitcher was doing?

If yes, then that is an attempted play. If not, should have been a LBR violation.

Wow! Talk about strawman arguments Coach = reasonable?

J/K

The problem is that the LBR has become a strategy and a nit-picking point with coaches demanding umpires see it the same way they do and that never leads to any solution that all would deem reasonable. Of course, that also depends on which side of the inning their team is playing at the time.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

To the OP, checking to see how they would enforce the LBR will probably get you an answer along the lines of "as described in the book," which will put you no further along than you were before you asked.

Of one of my favorites, "Coach, when and if I see the a violation, I will call it."

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Wow! Talk about strawman arguments Coach = reasonable?

J/K

The problem is that the LBR has become a strategy and a nit-picking point with coaches demanding umpires see it the same way they do and that never leads to any solution that all would deem reasonable. Of course, that also depends on which side of the inning their team is playing at the time.

That's the best part!! It doesn't matter what the coach thinks, I get to decide what is reasonable!!

I love the rules that refer to "in the umpire's judgment"; still haven't found one that says "in the coach's judgment", or "if the coach agrees"!!

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MikeZ

Very interesting. And yes she literally walked to the back of the circle and I thought for sure the runner on 3rd would be called out on the LBR the explanation was that she was walking and •could• have the momentum to throw it underhand to get the runner going to second. Seems to me too much judgement on this, they should try to tighten this up. His suggestion to me was to check with the umpires before the game what they view as a play to negate the lbr.

Not tightened up, maybe loosened up. It is easy if you remember the intent is not to be a gotcha or cheap out rule; just to prevent runners disrupting/delaying the game by repeated maneuvers between bases.

[jwwashburn]

Several years ago, I was doing a USSSA World Series in Missouri....it was about 104 degrees with typical STL humidity.

A coach from Minnesota came out to discuss what his SS thought had been a violation. He was dripping sweat.

Before he could say anything, I said:

Coach, does it get this hot in Minnesota?
He said. Not that I can remember.
I responded: Do you think there is any way I would not have called an OUT if I could?
He smiled and said: That is good enough for me.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Wow! Talk about strawman arguments Coach = reasonable?

J/K

The problem is that the LBR has become a strategy and a nit-picking point with coaches demanding umpires see it the same way they do and that never leads to any solution that all would deem reasonable. Of course, that also depends on which side of the inning their team is playing at the time.

Twelve hours to post the anticipated dig at the look back rule....you must be slowing down in your old age......