Look back rule

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Of course it does. The "rule" is not in effect, thereby not applicable unless F1 has possession of the ball in the circle.

We had this discussion some time ago, last year, or before.

I was making the point that if the BR overruns and makes her turn back toward 1B before the ball is in the circle, that the "committed to first" does not apply, and she still has her one stop.

I was very lonely in making that case. IIRC, you and everyone else said that didn't matter. Once she headed back to 1B, and the ball was in the circle (regardless of the order of those two) she was committed.

What you are saying now is if she turns back to 1B before the ball is in the circle, she can go to within a step of 1B, and legally take off for 2B?

[roadking]

NCAA
12.21.6.5 The batter-runner, after overrunning first base, must immediately
return nonstop to first base or, if she does not retouch first base, must
make an attempt to advance to second. If after passing the base, the base
runner is heading back toward first base within the basepath extended, she
may make a decision to go to either base. However, stepping beyond the
extended basepath in foul territory commits the base runner to first base
while stepping beyond the basepath toward the second-base side commits
the base runner to second base.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by roadking

NCAA
12.21.6.5 The batter-runner, after overrunning first base, must immediately
return nonstop to first base or, if she does not retouch first base, must
make an attempt to advance to second. If after passing the base, the base
runner is heading back toward first base within the basepath extended, she
may make a decision to go to either base. However, stepping beyond the
extended basepath in foul territory commits the base runner to first base
while stepping beyond the basepath toward the second-base side commits
the base runner to second base.

Perhaps you aren't realizing that no one here is talking about the NCAA version of the rule. The discussion at this point is about everyone OTHER than NCAA.

Tom, I hear what you are saying, and submit that one basic premise of the LBR is that runners always have a "decision moment", which can vary according to the play. Most often, that moment is the one stop we discuss. In cases where a stopped runner sees the ball into the circle, we say that the runner gets to pick up the ball, recognize where it is, who has it, and that it is in control, and then must immediately make a decision.

I don't see the overrun differently. Once the runner turns back, if the ball is in the circle, the runner sees it (or should see it), the decision moment is now; if she doesn't break for 2nd NOW, she is committed to 1st (EXCEPT in NCAA; already said why I don't like that). If she is simply being a runner who is not subject to LBR because the ball isn't in the circle, she still has a decision to make based on the protection provided by overrunning the base; to make an attempt puts her in jeopardy, to return to the base (and accept THAT protection) means she is committing to first; under the overrun rule.

But, if the runner returning to first breaks for second before or simultaneous with F1 gaining control in the circle, I don't have a LBR violation, I have a runner that decided to attempt to advance legally, and is now in jeopardy. If she breaks AFTER F1 gains control, then I say she has taken both bites (ala NCAA), and have a LBR violation everywhere else.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Perhaps you aren't realizing that no one here is talking about the NCAA version of the rule. The discussion at this point is about everyone OTHER than NCAA.

Tom, I hear what you are saying, and submit that one basic premise of the LBR is that runners always have a "decision moment", which can vary according to the play. Most often, that moment is the one stop we discuss. In cases where a stopped runner sees the ball into the circle, we say that the runner gets to pick up the ball, recognize where it is, who has it, and that it is in control, and then must immediately make a decision.

I don't see the overrun differently. Once the runner turns back, if the ball is in the circle, the runner sees it (or should see it), the decision moment is now; if she doesn't break for 2nd NOW, she is committed to 1st (EXCEPT in NCAA; already said why I don't like that). If she is simply being a runner who is not subject to LBR because the ball isn't in the circle, she still has a decision to make based on the protection provided by overrunning the base; to make an attempt puts her in jeopardy, to return to the base (and accept THAT protection) means she is committing to first; under the overrun rule.

But, if the runner returning to first breaks for second before or simultaneous with F1 gaining control in the circle, I don't have a LBR violation, I have a runner that decided to attempt to advance legally, and is now in jeopardy. If she breaks AFTER F1 gains control, then I say she has taken both bites (ala NCAA), and have a LBR violation everywhere else.

I see what you are saying. Still, I think it is an unnecessary special case. See next post.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

We had this discussion some time ago, last year, or before.

I was making the point that if the BR overruns and makes her turn back toward 1B before the ball is in the circle, that the "committed to first" does not apply, and she still has her one stop.

I was very lonely in making that case. IIRC, you and everyone else said that didn't matter. Once she headed back to 1B, and the ball was in the circle (regardless of the order of those two) she was committed.

What you are saying now is if she turns back to 1B before the ball is in the circle, she can go to within a step of 1B, and legally take off for 2B?

Unless you have something different, yeah. (assuming the ball isn't in the circle)

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Unless you have something different, yeah. (assuming the ball isn't in the circle)

Trying to narrow down your view.

ASA Rules

Situation 1:
BR on a wild pitch ball four advances to 1B. BR overruns 1B. F2 throws to F3. BR turns back toward 1B and is apparently returning to 1B. F3 throws the ball to F1. BR continues a couple of steps toward 1B (no pause or stop), then breaks for 2B. LBR violation.

Situation 2:
BR on a wild pitch ball four advances to 1B. BR rounds 1B. F2 throws to F4. BR turns back toward 1B and is apparently returning to 1B. F4 throws the ball to F1. BR continues a couple of steps toward 1B (no pause or stop), then breaks for 2B. No LBR violation.

Why are these different?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Trying to narrow down your view.

ASA Rules

Situation 1:
BR on a wild pitch ball four advances to 1B. BR overruns 1B. F2 throws to F3. BR turns back toward 1B and is apparently returning to 1B. F3 throws the ball to F1. BR continues a couple of steps toward 1B (no pause or stop), then breaks for 2B. LBR violation.

Situation 2:
BR on a wild pitch ball four advances to 1B. BR rounds 1B. F2 throws to F4. BR turns back toward 1B and is apparently returning to 1B. F4 throws the ball to F1. BR continues a couple of steps toward 1B (no pause or stop), then breaks for 2B. No LBR violation.

Why are these different?

1. BR/R not in jeopardy
2. R in jeopardy

Again (and this is for Andy), another reason to dump the rule and avoid the CS on the bases. Play the game, not the rules.

[ronald]

Irish and steve, this is the type of languague we need to get at clinIcs and on paper somewhere. As typing like chicken, I will stop here.

Thanks ron

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by ronald

Irish and steve, this is the type of languague we need to get at clinIcs and on paper somewhere. As typing like chicken, I will stop here.

Thanks ron

If you are in his state in ASA, or even his Region, you can here Irish talk at all the clinics you want.

While I have filled in as a clinician in my area, and even as a clinician at an ASA National School, I have no official position within ASA.

[ronald]

Out of the last 4 tears, clinic in region got canceLed twice.I will make sure to bring up some of the plays so mike and others can provide thinking onthese plays.

So iexpect mike to have all these plays ready to roll on the video screen

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Trying to narrow down your view.

ASA Rules

Situation 1:
BR on a wild pitch ball four advances to 1B. BR overruns 1B. F2 throws to F3. BR turns back toward 1B and is apparently returning to 1B. F3 throws the ball to F1. BR continues a couple of steps toward 1B (no pause or stop), then breaks for 2B. LBR violation.

Situation 2:
BR on a wild pitch ball four advances to 1B. BR rounds 1B. F2 throws to F4. BR turns back toward 1B and is apparently returning to 1B. F4 throws the ball to F1. BR continues a couple of steps toward 1B (no pause or stop), then breaks for 2B. No LBR violation.

Why are these different?

Before reading Mike's response, I have nothing on both of these.