Trailing runner tagged out after lead runner is obstructed

[sbatten]

ASA answers preferred because that's what I call.

Situation: Two outs. R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B. B4 hits a ball in the gap.

R1 is obstructed by F6, falls, barely makes it to 3B and stops. Umpire sticks out his arm and immediately judges that R1 and R2 (a speedy runner who was moving on contact) both would have scored easily without obstruction.

But trailing R2 didn't see what happened. She rounds 2B, advances almost all the way to 3B, sees R1 standing there, retreats toward 2B and then R2 is tagged out by the defense before reaching the bag.

What's your call?

• R2 safe or out?
• If R2 is safe, is she awarded home or some other base?
• If R2 is out, is R1 awarded home and the run counted, or does R2's out (being the third out of the inning) prevent R1's run?

My instinct is invoke the "dead ball, award bases" routine -- R2 safe, R1+R2 sent home -- BUT the ASA Rulebook is only explicit about the obstructed runner. It mentions the other runners with regards to awarded bases, not safe or out.

I am guessing there are helpful case plays in the ASA Case Book but I don't have it. Or if this has been discussed before, please point me toward the thread -- I tried searching and couldn't find it.

Cheers,

Scott

[tcannizzo]

R2 is Out and no runs score since the third out was made prior to the base award.

R2 is not protected and needs to be aware of the situation.
Heck, if I read correctly, R2 didn't even know R1 was obstructed.

[sbatten]

Thanks, Tony. You are right, and my first instinct to protect R2 is not supported by the book. She is out.

I have a harder time "selling" that we can't count R1's run. I agree that it's a time play but in this case the obstruction prevented R1 from even having a chance to score before another runner was put out.

Scott

[IRISHMAFIA]

From March 2011 ASA Clarifications

PLAY: With one out, R1 on 2B and R2 on 1B, B4 hits an extra base hit to the outfield. R1 rounds 3B and is obstructed and knocked down. R2 accidently passes R1 as R1 is lying on the ground. The ball is returned to the infield and R1 is tagged out. What is the call?
RULING: When R1 was obstructed between 2B and 3B, the base umpire should signal and call “obstruction.” (Rule 8, Section 5B) The umpire should then rule R2 out when R2 passed R1 with the ball remaining live. (Rule 8, Section 7D EFFECT) When R1 is tagged out between the two bases where the obstruction occurred, the umpire should call “time” and award R1 and all other runners the base or bases they would have reached, had there been no obstruction. (Rule 8, Section 5B[ 2] & [4] EFFECT) This would nullify the out on R2 and both R1 and R2 would be awarded the bases they would have reached had there been no obstruction. In this play, that base appears to be home.

[tcannizzo]

Upon further review:
It is BU's responsibility to consider where ALL runners would have reached had there been no OBS; not just the obstructed runner. (Something I hadn't previously considered.)

And no matter how hard I try, I can't get the book to support my previous post.

Had my logic been used in your game, and if properly appealed/protested, the ruling would have been reversed.

[jwwashburn]

Tcan,

I had your answer at first, as well.

However, a good rule of thumb(that we both forgot:-) is that the defense should never be rewarded for obstructing a runner....and if I am about to do that, I probably am about to screw up!

Thanks to Irsish for straightening me out.


Joe

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

From March 2011 ASA Clarifications

PLAY: With one out, R1 on 2B and R2 on 1B, B4 hits an extra base hit to the outfield. R1 rounds 3B and is obstructed and knocked down. R2 accidently passes R1 as R1 is lying on the ground. The ball is returned to the infield and R1 is tagged out. What is the call?
RULING: When R1 was obstructed between 2B and 3B, the base umpire should signal and call “obstruction.” (Rule 8, Section 5B) The umpire should then rule R2 out when R2 passed R1 with the ball remaining live. (Rule 8, Section 7D EFFECT) When R1 is tagged out between the two bases where the obstruction occurred, the umpire should call “time” and award R1 and all other runners the base or bases they would have reached, had there been no obstruction. (Rule 8, Section 5B[ 2] & [4] EFFECT) This would nullify the out on R2 and both R1 and R2 would be awarded the bases they would have reached had there been no obstruction. In this play, that base appears to be home.

Result ok, but are the red phrases consistent?

[Andy]

Originally Posted by sbatten

ASA answers preferred because that's what I call.

Situation: Two outs. R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B. B4 hits a ball in the gap.

R1 is obstructed by F6, falls, barely makes it to 3B and stops. Umpire sticks out his arm and immediately judges that R1 and R2 (a speedy runner who was moving on contact) both would have scored easily without obstruction.But trailing R2 didn't see what happened. She rounds 2B, advances almost all the way to 3B, sees R1 standing there, retreats toward 2B and then R2 is tagged out by the defense before reaching the bag.

What's your call?

• R2 safe or out?
• If R2 is safe, is she awarded home or some other base?
• If R2 is out, is R1 awarded home and the run counted, or does R2's out (being the third out of the inning) prevent R1's run?

My instinct is invoke the "dead ball, award bases" routine -- R2 safe, R1+R2 sent home -- BUT the ASA Rulebook is only explicit about the obstructed runner. It mentions the other runners with regards to awarded bases, not safe or out.

I am guessing there are helpful case plays in the ASA Case Book but I don't have it. Or if this has been discussed before, please point me toward the thread -- I tried searching and couldn't find it.

Cheers,

Scott

With obstruction, the umpires job is to consider the effects of the obstruction not only on the obstructed runner, but all runners. If the initial judgement was as posted in the OP and bolded above, that is what the umpire judged would be the result of the play without the obstruction, if that is not the actual result when playing action is stopped, the bases need to be awarded based on that judgement. Of course, this assumes that neither of the runners did anything that would supercede the obstruction...

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Result ok, but are the red phrases consistent?

No, but not really relevant to the point being addressed in the thread.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

No, but not really relevant to the point being addressed in the thread.

That is what I meant by "result ok".

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

From March 2011 ASA Clarifications

PLAY: With one out, R1 on 2B and R2 on 1B, B4 hits an extra base hit to the outfield. R1 rounds 3B and is obstructed and knocked down. R2 accidently passes R1 as R1 is lying on the ground. The ball is returned to the infield and R1 is tagged out. What is the call?
RULING: When R1 was obstructed between 2B and 3B, the base umpire should signal and call “obstruction.” (Rule 8, Section 5B) The umpire should then rule R2 out when R2 passed R1 with the ball remaining live. (Rule 8, Section 7D EFFECT) When R1 is tagged out between the two bases where the obstruction occurred, the umpire should call “time” and award R1 and all other runners the base or bases they would have reached, had there been no obstruction. (Rule 8, Section 5B[ 2] & [4] EFFECT) This would nullify the out on R2 and both R1 and R2 would be awarded the bases they would have reached had there been no obstruction. In this play, that base appears to be home.

Everybody below seems to take this as permission to call the runner safe. Is that how you mean it to be interpreted?
From reading the rules, I think I would conclude that if the obstructed runner is tagged out then we will award all runners and if not then we award only the obstructed runner. And I'm not sure this clarification makes it any easier to have the runner at 2nd safe.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by youngump

Everybody below seems to take this as permission to call the runner safe. Is that how you mean it to be interpreted?
From reading the rules, I think I would conclude that if the obstructed runner is tagged out then we will award all runners and if not then we award only the obstructed runner. And I'm not sure this clarification makes it any easier to have the runner at 2nd safe.

Yes, that is how I read it to be interpreted. I think it makes no sense to award bases to "all runners affected" only if the obstructed runner is tagged out, and not if another affected runner is. To do so means the defense benefits from the obstruction; and that is what we supposed to be negating.

The only substantive difference in which runner affected is actually tagged out, in my mind, is when we kill the play (obstructed runner tagged out) and when we wait until the play ends (another runner tagged out).

[jwwashburn]

+1

[Dakota]

My initial thought (although I didn't post) was to consider R2 as a runner affected by the obstruction and award the bases. However, this part bugs me...

While it is true that in the umpire's judgment R2 would have scored had there been no obstruction, the obstruction did not cause R2 to not pay attention to where R1 was (or, presumably, the coaches) until it was too late and R2 was picked off.

Did obstruction cause R2 to not know where the ball was and where the preceding runner was? Does R2 get a free pass for such a base-running gaffe?

I get Steve's point of the defense not benefiting from the obstruction, but were they? Or were they benefiting from poor base-running by R2?

[jwwashburn]

Without the obstruction, that would have been good base running.