Trailing runner tagged out after lead runner is obstructed

[sbatten]

ASA answers preferred because that's what I call.

Situation: Two outs. R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B. B4 hits a ball in the gap.

R1 is obstructed by F6, falls, barely makes it to 3B and stops. Umpire sticks out his arm and immediately judges that R1 and R2 (a speedy runner who was moving on contact) both would have scored easily without obstruction.

But trailing R2 didn't see what happened. She rounds 2B, advances almost all the way to 3B, sees R1 standing there, retreats toward 2B and then R2 is tagged out by the defense before reaching the bag.

What's your call?

• R2 safe or out?
• If R2 is safe, is she awarded home or some other base?
• If R2 is out, is R1 awarded home and the run counted, or does R2's out (being the third out of the inning) prevent R1's run?

My instinct is invoke the "dead ball, award bases" routine -- R2 safe, R1+R2 sent home -- BUT the ASA Rulebook is only explicit about the obstructed runner. It mentions the other runners with regards to awarded bases, not safe or out.

I am guessing there are helpful case plays in the ASA Case Book but I don't have it. Or if this has been discussed before, please point me toward the thread -- I tried searching and couldn't find it.

Cheers,

Scott

[tcannizzo]

R2 is Out and no runs score since the third out was made prior to the base award.

R2 is not protected and needs to be aware of the situation.
Heck, if I read correctly, R2 didn't even know R1 was obstructed.

[sbatten]

Thanks, Tony. You are right, and my first instinct to protect R2 is not supported by the book. She is out.

I have a harder time "selling" that we can't count R1's run. I agree that it's a time play but in this case the obstruction prevented R1 from even having a chance to score before another runner was put out.

Scott

[IRISHMAFIA]

From March 2011 ASA Clarifications

PLAY: With one out, R1 on 2B and R2 on 1B, B4 hits an extra base hit to the outfield. R1 rounds 3B and is obstructed and knocked down. R2 accidently passes R1 as R1 is lying on the ground. The ball is returned to the infield and R1 is tagged out. What is the call?
RULING: When R1 was obstructed between 2B and 3B, the base umpire should signal and call “obstruction.” (Rule 8, Section 5B) The umpire should then rule R2 out when R2 passed R1 with the ball remaining live. (Rule 8, Section 7D EFFECT) When R1 is tagged out between the two bases where the obstruction occurred, the umpire should call “time” and award R1 and all other runners the base or bases they would have reached, had there been no obstruction. (Rule 8, Section 5B[ 2] & [4] EFFECT) This would nullify the out on R2 and both R1 and R2 would be awarded the bases they would have reached had there been no obstruction. In this play, that base appears to be home.

[tcannizzo]

Upon further review:
It is BU's responsibility to consider where ALL runners would have reached had there been no OBS; not just the obstructed runner. (Something I hadn't previously considered.)

And no matter how hard I try, I can't get the book to support my previous post.

Had my logic been used in your game, and if properly appealed/protested, the ruling would have been reversed.

[jwwashburn]

Tcan,

I had your answer at first, as well.

However, a good rule of thumb(that we both forgot:-) is that the defense should never be rewarded for obstructing a runner....and if I am about to do that, I probably am about to screw up!

Thanks to Irsish for straightening me out.


Joe

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

Tcan,

I had your answer at first, as well.

However, a good rule of thumb(that we both forgot:-) is that the defense should never be rewarded for obstructing a runner....and if I am about to do that, I probably am about to screw up!

Thanks to Irsish for straightening me out.

Joe

Never?

What about this play. R1 & R2. On a ground ball between first and second, F6 obstructs R1. Meanwhile, F4 scoops up the ball and tags out R2.

Why should R1 be safe when she was never obstructed and the obstruction never affected where she ended up?

[jwwashburn]

I do not understand your play. I am trying to visualize it.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

Never?

What about this play. R1 & R2. On a ground ball between first and second, F6 obstructs. Meanwhile, F4 scoops up the ball and tags out R1.

Why should R1 be safe when she was never obstructed and the obstruction never affected where she ended up?

I may not be reading this right, but what rule declares R1 safe if not obstructed?

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

Never?

What about this play. R1 & R2. On a ground ball between first and second, F6 obstructs. Meanwhile, F4 scoops up the ball and tags out R1.

Why should R1 be safe when she was never obstructed and the obstruction never affected where she ended up?

If you are suggesting this ciolates the suggestion to "not reward the defensive team for commiting obstruction" you are missing the point.

(Assuming you messed up your R1 and R2 or are an NCAA umpire))

You are saying that the obstruction occurred by F6 obstructing the runner going from 2nd to 3rd (actually R1 in most SB descriptions-except NCAA) AND that R2 was tagged by F4 between 1st and 2nd?

If so, the tag of R2 had nothing to do with the obstruction, so she is out. The defense is not being "rewarded" with an out they would not have gotten. R2 was dead meat no matter what.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

Never?

What about this play. R1 & R2. On a ground ball between first and second, F6 obstructs. Meanwhile, F4 scoops up the ball and tags out R1.

Why should R1 be safe when she was never obstructed and the obstruction never affected where she ended up?

I think you mean R2 was tagged out by F4. This would be a DDB and the play allowed to finish. R1 cannot be called out between 2nd & 3rd unless due to an exception to the OBS rule. The BR can still be put out and there can be a play on R1, but if between the bases, it will be a dead ball and the appropriate base awarded. All other play stands.

Why, you ask? Because the OBS did not affect R2 or BR, therefore there is no protection.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

From March 2011 ASA Clarifications

PLAY: With one out, R1 on 2B and R2 on 1B, B4 hits an extra base hit to the outfield. R1 rounds 3B and is obstructed and knocked down. R2 accidently passes R1 as R1 is lying on the ground. The ball is returned to the infield and R1 is tagged out. What is the call?
RULING: When R1 was obstructed between 2B and 3B, the base umpire should signal and call “obstruction.” (Rule 8, Section 5B) The umpire should then rule R2 out when R2 passed R1 with the ball remaining live. (Rule 8, Section 7D EFFECT) When R1 is tagged out between the two bases where the obstruction occurred, the umpire should call “time” and award R1 and all other runners the base or bases they would have reached, had there been no obstruction. (Rule 8, Section 5B[ 2] & [4] EFFECT) This would nullify the out on R2 and both R1 and R2 would be awarded the bases they would have reached had there been no obstruction. In this play, that base appears to be home.

Result ok, but are the red phrases consistent?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Result ok, but are the red phrases consistent?

No, but not really relevant to the point being addressed in the thread.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

No, but not really relevant to the point being addressed in the thread.

That is what I meant by "result ok".

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

From March 2011 ASA Clarifications

PLAY: With one out, R1 on 2B and R2 on 1B, B4 hits an extra base hit to the outfield. R1 rounds 3B and is obstructed and knocked down. R2 accidently passes R1 as R1 is lying on the ground. The ball is returned to the infield and R1 is tagged out. What is the call?
RULING: When R1 was obstructed between 2B and 3B, the base umpire should signal and call “obstruction.” (Rule 8, Section 5B) The umpire should then rule R2 out when R2 passed R1 with the ball remaining live. (Rule 8, Section 7D EFFECT) When R1 is tagged out between the two bases where the obstruction occurred, the umpire should call “time” and award R1 and all other runners the base or bases they would have reached, had there been no obstruction. (Rule 8, Section 5B[ 2] & [4] EFFECT) This would nullify the out on R2 and both R1 and R2 would be awarded the bases they would have reached had there been no obstruction. In this play, that base appears to be home.

Everybody below seems to take this as permission to call the runner safe. Is that how you mean it to be interpreted?
From reading the rules, I think I would conclude that if the obstructed runner is tagged out then we will award all runners and if not then we award only the obstructed runner. And I'm not sure this clarification makes it any easier to have the runner at 2nd safe.