Passing an obstructed runner

[SRW]

ASA Championship Rules.

R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B. Two outs. B3 hits a deep shot over F8's head, and both runners take off. F6 collides with R1, knocking R1 to the ground. As R1 is on the ground, R2 rounds 2B, passes R1 (who is still on the ground), touches 3B, and crosses home plate, easily beating out the throw from F8. In the umpire's judgement, both R1 and R2 would have scored had the obstruction not occured.

Do you call an out on R2 for passing R1 or not? Do any runs score?

[Steve M]

Here's a need for ASA to match Fed's recent change.
As I read the book and interps in ASA, nobody scores and there are 3 outs.
Unless you're going to say that you thought R1 was injured due to the obstructing collision - then put the runners where you think they would have gotten had there been no obstruction.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SRW

ASA Championship Rules.

R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B. Two outs. B3 hits a deep shot over F8's head, and both runners take off. F6 collides with R1, knocking R1 to the ground. As R1 is on the ground, R2 rounds 2B, passes R1 (who is still on the ground), touches 3B, and crosses home plate, easily beating out the throw from F8. In the umpire's judgement, both R1 and R2 would have scored had the obstruction not occured.

Do you call an out on R2 for passing R1 or not? Do any runs score?

To the best of my knowledge, there is no instance in which one runner is allowed to pass another in ASA rules.

You cannot use the argument that it is not fair to tie up one runner because another was OBS since ASA makes an allowance for the umpire to award bases to any runner affected by the OBS.

Think about it. What if you do allow a succeeding runner to continue pass an obstructed runner and the OBS runner gets up and continues? Good luck cleaning up that mess.

[CecilOne]

Did R1 get up during the play?
Why the injury factor?
The OP reads as R2 beating the play at home, implying that R1 also would have reached home w/o OBS, so wouldn't both runners be awarded home?
Where did the BR end up and was that also affected by the OBS?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Did R1 get up during the play?
Why the injury factor?
The OP reads as R2 beating the play at home, implying that R1 also would have reached home w/o OBS, so wouldn't both runners be awarded home?
Where did the BR end up and was that also affected by the OBS?

How can a runner who is out by rule score a run?

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Did R1 get up during the play?
Why the injury factor?
The OP reads as R2 beating the play at home, implying that R1 also would have reached home w/o OBS, so wouldn't both runners be awarded home?
Where did the BR end up and was that also affected by the OBS?

Cecil,
There's the requirement - and it does override obstruction - that all runners run the bases legally. R2 did not do that and is out when R2 completely passes R1, so no runs score. R1 is the obstructed runner so the play stays live until R1 is put out or reaches the base she'd have obtained sans obstruction. R1 was not put out, R2 was out for passing R1. That's a timing thing. Since nobody scored before R2, no runs can score by rule.

Now, the injury thing - since R1 stays down while being caught and passed by another runner who started 1 base behind, you might be able to justify (and the word "might" is about as big and bold and going to be questioned as you can imagine) killing all play because an injured player is likely to get hurt worse due to play continuing.

The BR was not affected by the obstruction.

[LIIRISHMAN]

THe hypothetical play mentioned here is a intersting one. According to the rules we must punish the offense that was wronged by the defense by the obstruction. Mike, would ASA address this any point in the future?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

How can a runner who is out by rule score a run?

Right, I guess my mind is still on not being out for passing an obstructed runner. Need to either work more ASA or not answer forums on Monday morning.

If that were true, do you agree the passing presumably would not have occurred w/o the OBS.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Steve M

Cecil,
There's the requirement - and it does override obstruction - that all runners run the bases legally. R2 did not do that and is out when R2 completely passes R1, so no runs score. R1 is the obstructed runner so the play stays live until R1 is put out or reaches the base she'd have obtained sans obstruction. R1 was not put out, R2 was out for passing R1. That's a timing thing. Since nobody scored before R2, no runs can score by rule.

Got it.

Originally Posted by Steve M

Cecil,
Now, the injury thing - since R1 stays down while being caught and passed by another runner who started 1 base behind, you might be able to justify (and the word "might" is about as big and bold and going to be questioned as you can imagine) killing all play because an injured player is likely to get hurt worse due to play continuing.

I think you are saying that if R1 stayed down from injury and you killed the play before R2 was out, you would then award R1 3rd or home and R1 2nd or 3rd; depending on your judgement of the throw timing from F8.

Originally Posted by Steve M

Cecil,
The BR was not affected by the obstruction.

I was posing the question that if BR head for 2nd but held up because of R1 on the ground nearby, could we judge that the BR would have made 2nd on the throw to home.

[tcblue13]

Originally Posted by LIIRISHMAN

THe hypothetical play mentioned here is a intersting one. According to the rules we must punish the offense that was wronged by the defense by the obstruction. Mike, would ASA address this any point in the future?

It sure does sound like one of those situations where a coach could develop a strategy by encouraging OBS on those long gappers hoping for the pass.

I. E. R1 on first base and B2 strokes a hit to the gap. F4 or F6 (depending on which gap) immediately moves to the vicinity of 2B to obstruct R1. If she happens to fall then there is the possibility of being passed by BR. If she is not passed, Blue enforces the OBS and things end up like they otherwise would. If BR passes, then there is the out. Less than two outs, R1 is awarded base(s) but with BR out. If two outs, inning over. Not that this would ever happen. But if I could figure it out with no ASA book, a coach might be able to figure it out without an Umpire's manual, UIC Manual, or a case book or any other of the assorted ASA books that are only for the initiated

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

What if you do allow a succeeding runner to continue pass an obstructed runner and the OBS runner gets up and continues? Good luck cleaning up that mess.

Let's see... R1 on 1B. Speedy BR gets a base hit into shallow left field. R1 OBS by F4 and knocked down. Due to location of the ball, R1 is judged protected to 2B only. BR passes R1 while R1 is down. F7 throws to F6 at 2B to attempt to retire BR (or R1?) and overthrows the ball into RF. F9 lets the overthrow get by her and chases it down. R1 gets up and continues. R1 ends on 3B and BR crosses home. OK - you have an exception for a runner being out for passing an obstructed runner. Great. Now what do you do?

I wonder if those codes that have this exception have any horror stories on it, or any interpretations on how to deal with it?

[SRW]

Just to clarify the situation, since people are reading more into it than they need to:

- B3 wound up on 2B.
- R1 was not injured enough to kill the play.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by LIIRISHMAN

THe hypothetical play mentioned here is a intersting one. According to the rules we must punish the offense that was wronged by the defense by the obstruction. Mike, would ASA address this any point in the future?

I don't see any reason to address it. You are not punishing anyone that hasn't violated a rule. As previously stated, the book makes allowances to advance runners affected by OBS to another. In the scenario offered, I don't think it would be a stretch to award R1 & R2 home as long as there was no other violation of the rules.

And again, can you imagine the mess if an OBS runner would get back into the fray? How many rules would have to be changed to allow R2 to legally scrore prior to R1? What if it is not a score? If the trailing runner is allowed to pass the OBS runner, then there is no longer any added protection permissible due to the original runner OBS, so if a runner ends up one.....nevermind, already getting a headache trying to figure out my own scenarios

[SRW]

Mike,
I'm not sure on one thing...

Can I still protect R1 to home after the third out and score 1 run (R1), since the OBS happened before R2 was out?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SRW

Mike,
I'm not sure on one thing...

Can I still protect R1 to home after the third out and score 1 run (R1), since the OBS happened before R2 was out?

Do would think that you would have to determine that R1 would have scored prior to where R2 reached the point where the passing took place? Getting complicated, isn't it? By the black and white of the rule, probably not.

However, without a specific interpretation, and using other OBS interpretations as a basis, I think you could sell that award. In your judgment, that is what would have been the result of the play had the OBS not occurred.