The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 09, 2007, 02:24am
SRW SRW is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 1,342
Passing an obstructed runner

ASA Championship Rules.

R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B. Two outs. B3 hits a deep shot over F8's head, and both runners take off. F6 collides with R1, knocking R1 to the ground. As R1 is on the ground, R2 rounds 2B, passes R1 (who is still on the ground), touches 3B, and crosses home plate, easily beating out the throw from F8. In the umpire's judgement, both R1 and R2 would have scored had the obstruction not occured.

Do you call an out on R2 for passing R1 or not? Do any runs score?
__________________
We see with our eyes. Fans and parents see with their hearts.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 09, 2007, 04:21am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: north central Pa
Posts: 2,360
Here's a need for ASA to match Fed's recent change.
As I read the book and interps in ASA, nobody scores and there are 3 outs.
Unless you're going to say that you thought R1 was injured due to the obstructing collision - then put the runners where you think they would have gotten had there been no obstruction.
__________________
Steve M
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 09, 2007, 05:32am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by SRW
ASA Championship Rules.

R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B. Two outs. B3 hits a deep shot over F8's head, and both runners take off. F6 collides with R1, knocking R1 to the ground. As R1 is on the ground, R2 rounds 2B, passes R1 (who is still on the ground), touches 3B, and crosses home plate, easily beating out the throw from F8. In the umpire's judgement, both R1 and R2 would have scored had the obstruction not occured.

Do you call an out on R2 for passing R1 or not? Do any runs score?
To the best of my knowledge, there is no instance in which one runner is allowed to pass another in ASA rules.

You cannot use the argument that it is not fair to tie up one runner because another was OBS since ASA makes an allowance for the umpire to award bases to any runner affected by the OBS.

Think about it. What if you do allow a succeeding runner to continue pass an obstructed runner and the OBS runner gets up and continues? Good luck cleaning up that mess.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 09, 2007, 09:27am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,425
Did R1 get up during the play?
Why the injury factor?
The OP reads as R2 beating the play at home, implying that R1 also would have reached home w/o OBS, so wouldn't both runners be awarded home?
Where did the BR end up and was that also affected by the OBS?
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 09, 2007, 10:26am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne
Did R1 get up during the play?
Why the injury factor?
The OP reads as R2 beating the play at home, implying that R1 also would have reached home w/o OBS, so wouldn't both runners be awarded home?
Where did the BR end up and was that also affected by the OBS?
How can a runner who is out by rule score a run?
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 09, 2007, 10:59am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: north central Pa
Posts: 2,360
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne
Did R1 get up during the play?
Why the injury factor?
The OP reads as R2 beating the play at home, implying that R1 also would have reached home w/o OBS, so wouldn't both runners be awarded home?
Where did the BR end up and was that also affected by the OBS?
Cecil,
There's the requirement - and it does override obstruction - that all runners run the bases legally. R2 did not do that and is out when R2 completely passes R1, so no runs score. R1 is the obstructed runner so the play stays live until R1 is put out or reaches the base she'd have obtained sans obstruction. R1 was not put out, R2 was out for passing R1. That's a timing thing. Since nobody scored before R2, no runs can score by rule.

Now, the injury thing - since R1 stays down while being caught and passed by another runner who started 1 base behind, you might be able to justify (and the word "might" is about as big and bold and going to be questioned as you can imagine) killing all play because an injured player is likely to get hurt worse due to play continuing.

The BR was not affected by the obstruction.
__________________
Steve M
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 09, 2007, 11:16am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 114
THe hypothetical play mentioned here is a intersting one. According to the rules we must punish the offense that was wronged by the defense by the obstruction. Mike, would ASA address this any point in the future?
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 09, 2007, 11:21am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
How can a runner who is out by rule score a run?
Right, I guess my mind is still on not being out for passing an obstructed runner. Need to either work more ASA or not answer forums on Monday morning.

If that were true, do you agree the passing presumably would not have occurred w/o the OBS.
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.

Last edited by CecilOne; Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 11:30am.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 09, 2007, 11:27am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve M
Cecil,
There's the requirement - and it does override obstruction - that all runners run the bases legally. R2 did not do that and is out when R2 completely passes R1, so no runs score. R1 is the obstructed runner so the play stays live until R1 is put out or reaches the base she'd have obtained sans obstruction. R1 was not put out, R2 was out for passing R1. That's a timing thing. Since nobody scored before R2, no runs can score by rule.
Got it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve M
Cecil,
Now, the injury thing - since R1 stays down while being caught and passed by another runner who started 1 base behind, you might be able to justify (and the word "might" is about as big and bold and going to be questioned as you can imagine) killing all play because an injured player is likely to get hurt worse due to play continuing.
I think you are saying that if R1 stayed down from injury and you killed the play before R2 was out, you would then award R1 3rd or home and R1 2nd or 3rd; depending on your judgement of the throw timing from F8.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve M
Cecil,
The BR was not affected by the obstruction.
I was posing the question that if BR head for 2nd but held up because of R1 on the ground nearby, could we judge that the BR would have made 2nd on the throw to home.
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 09, 2007, 11:39am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Northeastern NC
Posts: 487
Quote:
Originally Posted by LIIRISHMAN
THe hypothetical play mentioned here is a intersting one. According to the rules we must punish the offense that was wronged by the defense by the obstruction. Mike, would ASA address this any point in the future?
It sure does sound like one of those situations where a coach could develop a strategy by encouraging OBS on those long gappers hoping for the pass.

I. E. R1 on first base and B2 strokes a hit to the gap. F4 or F6 (depending on which gap) immediately moves to the vicinity of 2B to obstruct R1. If she happens to fall then there is the possibility of being passed by BR. If she is not passed, Blue enforces the OBS and things end up like they otherwise would. If BR passes, then there is the out. Less than two outs, R1 is awarded base(s) but with BR out. If two outs, inning over. Not that this would ever happen. But if I could figure it out with no ASA book, a coach might be able to figure it out without an Umpire's manual, UIC Manual, or a case book or any other of the assorted ASA books that are only for the initiated
__________________
TCBLUE13
NFHS, PONY, Babe Ruth, LL, NSA

Softball in the Bible
"In the big-inning"

Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 09, 2007, 12:02pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Twin Cities MN
Posts: 8,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
What if you do allow a succeeding runner to continue pass an obstructed runner and the OBS runner gets up and continues? Good luck cleaning up that mess.
Let's see... R1 on 1B. Speedy BR gets a base hit into shallow left field. R1 OBS by F4 and knocked down. Due to location of the ball, R1 is judged protected to 2B only. BR passes R1 while R1 is down. F7 throws to F6 at 2B to attempt to retire BR (or R1?) and overthrows the ball into RF. F9 lets the overthrow get by her and chases it down. R1 gets up and continues. R1 ends on 3B and BR crosses home. OK - you have an exception for a runner being out for passing an obstructed runner. Great. Now what do you do?

I wonder if those codes that have this exception have any horror stories on it, or any interpretations on how to deal with it?
__________________
Tom
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 09, 2007, 12:06pm
SRW SRW is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 1,342
Just to clarify the situation, since people are reading more into it than they need to:

- B3 wound up on 2B.
- R1 was not injured enough to kill the play.
__________________
We see with our eyes. Fans and parents see with their hearts.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 09, 2007, 12:09pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by LIIRISHMAN
THe hypothetical play mentioned here is a intersting one. According to the rules we must punish the offense that was wronged by the defense by the obstruction. Mike, would ASA address this any point in the future?
I don't see any reason to address it. You are not punishing anyone that hasn't violated a rule. As previously stated, the book makes allowances to advance runners affected by OBS to another. In the scenario offered, I don't think it would be a stretch to award R1 & R2 home as long as there was no other violation of the rules.

And again, can you imagine the mess if an OBS runner would get back into the fray? How many rules would have to be changed to allow R2 to legally scrore prior to R1? What if it is not a score? If the trailing runner is allowed to pass the OBS runner, then there is no longer any added protection permissible due to the original runner OBS, so if a runner ends up one.....nevermind, already getting a headache trying to figure out my own scenarios
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 09, 2007, 12:14pm
SRW SRW is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 1,342
Mike,
I'm not sure on one thing...

Can I still protect R1 to home after the third out and score 1 run (R1), since the OBS happened before R2 was out?
__________________
We see with our eyes. Fans and parents see with their hearts.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 09, 2007, 02:51pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by SRW
Mike,
I'm not sure on one thing...

Can I still protect R1 to home after the third out and score 1 run (R1), since the OBS happened before R2 was out?
Do would think that you would have to determine that R1 would have scored prior to where R2 reached the point where the passing took place? Getting complicated, isn't it? By the black and white of the rule, probably not.

However, without a specific interpretation, and using other OBS interpretations as a basis, I think you could sell that award. In your judgment, that is what would have been the result of the play had the OBS not occurred.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Obstructed Runner blueump Softball 5 Sun Jan 17, 2010 08:21pm
Obstructed Runner on an Out blueump Baseball 10 Tue May 22, 2007 03:42pm
Passing another runner. JRutledge Baseball 3 Sat Apr 30, 2005 11:40pm
Passing a runner alwaysask Softball 9 Fri May 09, 2003 09:59pm
Passing runner greymule Baseball 6 Tue Sep 24, 2002 01:59pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:08am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1