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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 27, 2012, 07:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
Just because a ball is rolling to the plate, does not make it ball four until it reaches the plate and is touched by the catcher. After all, the batter may still attempt to hit the ball if they choose, may even miss the ball.
Yes, the batter may still attempt to hit the ball. However, if she has discarded her bat and started to 1B, that ship has sailed. The pitch cannot become a strike unless she swings at it since it has hit the ground. And she has given up on swinging at it. So it's a ball. Still can't see any reason why batter must wait to go to 1B on this pitch..

8-1-C says the batter becomes a BR when four balls are called by the umpire. So when should the umpire call it a ball? 7-5-A says a ball is called by the umpire on any legally delivered pitch that does not enter the strike zone, touches the ground, or touches home plate and the batter does not swing.

This pitch has touched the ground and the batter has by discarding the bat and moving to 1B indicated she is not going to swing. It's ball four so now she is a batter-runner. When the dropped ball rolls against the bat, it is not a batter hitting the ball with one foot out of the box, it is a batter-runner whose discarded bat had the ball hit it. Which is nothing.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 27, 2012, 10:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpireErnie View Post
Yes, the batter may still attempt to hit the ball. However, if she has discarded her bat and started to 1B, that ship has sailed. The pitch cannot become a strike unless she swings at it since it has hit the ground. And she has given up on swinging at it. So it's a ball. Still can't see any reason why batter must wait to go to 1B on this pitch..
Where does it state the batter must be in the batter's hands?

Quote:
8-1-C says the batter becomes a BR when four balls are called by the umpire. So when should the umpire call it a ball? 7-5-A says a ball is called by the umpire on any legally delivered pitch that does not enter the strike zone, touches the ground, or touches home plate and the batter does not swing.
You are reading something that is not there. It cannot be a ball until the batter no longer has the ability to hit the ball. And, again, nothing states the bat must be in the batter's hands NOR does the contact with the ball need to be intentional.

Quote:
This pitch has touched the ground and the batter has by discarding the bat and moving to 1B indicated she is not going to swing. It's ball four so now she is a batter-runner. When the dropped ball rolls against the bat, it is not a batter hitting the ball with one foot out of the box, it is a batter-runner whose discarded bat had the ball hit it. Which is nothing.
Again, you are reading something that isn't there. Years ago when I was young and fast and played FP while in the USN, I often hung the bat over the plate to let the ball hit it. The ball really goes dead when there is nothing holding the bat. It was not unusual for me to actually release the bat prior to contact with the ball. That was not a discarded bat. And unless you can tell a batter is throwing the bat away and not laying it on the plate with intent of contacting the ball, you have no call until something happens.

This is a TWP and the only reason I raise it was because of my antics 40 years ago and the warnings I often received from umpires about the BB. However, my point is completely backed by the rules as written.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 28, 2012, 09:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
Does the batter leaving the box before the ball passes interfere with the catcher?
In what manner?
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 28, 2012, 11:01am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
Hindering the catcher from "catching" the pitch if there is a play to be made.
You understand I'm supporting an out call on this?

Ernie has a lot of good points that throw a lot of twists into this, but my only point is that the rule states if the legally pitched ball is hit by the bat while the batter's foot is entirely out of the batter's box, the batter is out.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 28, 2012, 12:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
You understand I'm supporting an out call on this?

Ernie has a lot of good points that throw a lot of twists into this, but my only point is that the rule states if the legally pitched ball is hit by the bat while the batter's foot is entirely out of the batter's box, the batter is out.
CeLl phone typing so kiss right nowm

Like 76k2 for intent and spirit. Won't fly but like
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 28, 2012, 01:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronald View Post
CeLl phone typing so kiss right nowm

Like 76k2 for intent and spirit. Won't fly but like
That would be a batted ball and a second hit, neither which would apply here.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 28, 2012, 02:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
You understand I'm supporting an out call on this?

Ernie has a lot of good points that throw a lot of twists into this, but my only point is that the rule states if the legally pitched ball is hit by the bat while the batter's foot is entirely out of the batter's box, the batter is out.
Unless the bat is part of the playing field?
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 28, 2012, 03:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob View Post
Unless the bat is part of the playing field?
And how could that be?
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 28, 2012, 03:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
Didn't you say "the ball rolls against it ", not the bat hit the ball?
Again, you are talking about a second hit and that is not the case here.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 28, 2012, 04:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
Am I on the wrong question? Or are you saying the bat is still moving also?
Irrelevant
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 28, 2012, 05:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
Years ago when I was young and fast and played FP while in the USN, I often hung the bat over the plate to let the ball hit it.
Irish.. thanks for your service, sir!
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 29, 2012, 01:11am
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OK, so this is a very interesting discussion.

Irish, your story about your Navy fastpitch days made me reread your post. I am getting the point you are driving at. I was thinking of a batter who sees the pitcher drop the pitch and knowing it's ball four decides to get to 1B asap and see what else she can get. Her discarded bat comes to rest in fair territory and the ball rolls into it.

But in your scenario you don't really care what the count is, you are talking about a batter who, seeing a dropped pitch rolling to the plate intentionally places the bat in the path of the ball and takes off to 1B.

Crazy idea but I would agree that by rule this is contacting the ball with the bat with one foot out of the batters box and so a dead ball out.

So if she tries to hit the ball in this manner but the ball rolls past the bat, is it a swing and a miss? She made an attempt to hit the ball even if it while the bat was not in her hands...

Is it a bunt attempt? If the ball rolled into the bat before the batter got her foot out of the box and the ball rolled foul with two strikes is she out for bunting foul?
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 29, 2012, 06:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpireErnie View Post
OK, so this is a very interesting discussion.

Irish, your story about your Navy fastpitch days made me reread your post. I am getting the point you are driving at. I was thinking of a batter who sees the pitcher drop the pitch and knowing it's ball four decides to get to 1B asap and see what else she can get. Her discarded bat comes to rest in fair territory and the ball rolls into it.

But in your scenario you don't really care what the count is, you are talking about a batter who, seeing a dropped pitch rolling to the plate intentionally places the bat in the path of the ball and takes off to 1B.

Crazy idea but I would agree that by rule this is contacting the ball with the bat with one foot out of the batters box and so a dead ball out.
Like is said, TWP.

Quote:
So if she tries to hit the ball in this manner but the ball rolls past the bat, is it a swing and a miss? She made an attempt to hit the ball even if it while the bat was not in her hands...
I would say no. see below

Quote:
Is it a bunt attempt? If the ball rolled into the bat before the batter got her foot out of the box and the ball rolled foul with two strikes is she out for bunting foul?
This probably would be perceived as a "bunt" as the only possible positive result would be that the bat tapped slowly in the infield. However, that means that for the purposes of determine if the batter "offered" at the pitch, the bat not being withdrawn has no bearing, and even if it did, the bat isn't in the strike zone.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 29, 2012, 08:13am
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Mike,

If this batter is smart enough to put her bat in the path of the ball with the intent to hit the ball ... suppose she's also smart enough to watch the pitch as she's running and leap into the air just before the ball strikes the bat.

Yes, WAY TWP ... but you started it! I have a base hit in this situation.

(Wanna make it weirder? What if R1 from third contacts the bat before the ball gets there?)
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 29, 2012, 09:45am
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OK, I'm definitely on the wrong question.
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