Obstruction

[Rich]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

This bears repeating. OBS is not meant to be a punitive call, but a corrective one. We are trying to "undo" the effect of the OBS.

Years ago there was in both NFHS baseball and softball an automatic minimum award of the next base.. a true penalty since that was a base that often a base the runner was not going to obtain.

That's still the case in NFHS baseball. All obstruction is delayed dead and there's a minimum award of one advance base. No idea about softball -- I don't work the sport.

[umpire12]

"First part is that you cannot call that runner out between 2nd & 3rd. What would have happened had the instruction not occurred?"


i think the point he is making is how do you determine what would have happened if the obstruction not occured if you have yet to determine if the ball was even caught yet?



"Many umpires have a difficult enough time determining what should happen based on what they are watching, let alone the need to consider a multitude of "what if" scenarios when making a decision".

seems like you have to consider a lot of "what ifs" if you are making a determination of runner protection while the ball is still in the air or yet to be played on

[youngump]

Originally Posted by umpire12

"First part is that you cannot call that runner out between 2nd & 3rd. What would have happened had the instruction not occurred?"

i think the point he is making is how do you determine what would have happened if the obstruction not occured if you have yet to determine if the ball was even caught yet?

Yes that was my point. The obstruction has already been neutralized by the time the ball is played. And we still have to protect the runner between 2nd and 3rd. But what base are we awarding? Let's say that the ball drops and the runner trips over his own feet and falls to the ground where he's tagged out.
Punitively, we take away the out. But now, we have to decide what base to put the runner on and I'm really not sure quite what to do since absent the obstruction the result of the play would have been an out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by youngump

Yes that was my point. The obstruction has already been neutralized by the time the ball is played. And we still have to protect the runner between 2nd and 3rd. But what base are we awarding? Let's say that the ball drops and the runner trips over his own feet and falls to the ground where he's tagged out.
Punitively, we take away the out. But now, we have to decide what base to put the runner on and I'm really not sure quite what to do since absent the obstruction the result of the play would have been an out.

Speaking ASA

Don't overthink it. See the OBS, signal DDB, envision how the play would unfold and "see" the base to which you believe the runner would have advanced has s/he not been obstructed. And, remember, no one is suggesting you be stingy, but do not be unbelieveably excessive.

Say a runner is OBS coming around 1B, you give the DDB and see the ball is still rolling to the fence, but with the fielder about to reach it. In your mind you may be thinking "okay, 2nd is a given, 3rd might be tight, but I doubt she would score". Okay, 3rd it is. That is your protection and award base.

As the runner advances, the defense makes a good relay and it is a close play at 3rd, but the ball gets away from F5 and the runner attempts to score and is thrown out by a step. The runner is out.The runner's ability to advance to the plate was not affected by the OBS.

There is no doubt that this "sight" is improved with experience and understanding of the level of competition. Like I said, no one is suggesting you be stingy, just fair without being absurd.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by GROUPthink

That's still the case in NFHS baseball. All obstruction is delayed dead and there's a minimum award of one advance base. No idea about softball -- I don't work the sport.

Well, maybe it should be more like softball.

In my area, when Fed had the automatic award, many umpires refused to call OBS on any defender dropping a knee to block the base on a pick-off play simply because they did not believe in awarding the runner a base undeserved. Once that was changed to reflect the ASA award, more OBS were called and eventually, the players stopped dropping the knee when it was realized they were no longer going to get the out call, and the bruised leg just wasn't worth it.

Not much different then some umpires ignoring an IP because they don't want to move runners as that is purely a punitive award especially if there is a runner beyond 1B. We can stand around all day and say it isn't so, but it is and anyone who has been around long enough has probably seen this.

Obviously, there are times when a rule or reward may need to be punitive, but it certainly shouldn't be the standard response to an infraction.

[EsqUmp]

How the hell is anyone going to know what an umpire's original "determination" is? It's in the umpire's head not displayed on the scoreboard.

My original point was this: If the umpire made the immediate determination to protect the runner to 3rd base only and the runner subsequently got thrown out by a hair at the plate, he better award that runner home. I don't care what he thought immediately - obviously he was wrong. Equity says to award the runner home.

[x-tremeump]

EsqUmp +1

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by xtreamump

EsqUmp +1

There's a shock!

[ronald]

Originally Posted by esqump

how the hell is anyone going to know what an umpire's original "determination" is? It's in the umpire's head not displayed on the scoreboard.

My original point was this: If the umpire made the immediate determination to protect the runner to 3rd base only and the runner subsequently got thrown out by a hair at the plate, he better award that runner home. I don't care what he thought immediately - obviously he was wrong. Equity says to award the runner home.

-1

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

How the hell is anyone going to know what an umpire's original "determination" is? It's in the umpire's head not displayed on the scoreboard.

My original point was this: If the umpire made the immediate determination to protect the runner to 3rd base only and the runner subsequently got thrown out by a hair at the plate, he better award that runner home. I don't care what he thought immediately - obviously he was wrong. Equity says to award the runner home.

You are absolutely correct that there is no way to know what base the umpire calling OBS is protecting to. Unless someone changes the mechanics of calling OBS you will not ever know until after the play. But as the offense you do know the obstructed runner cannot be put out between the two bases where OBS occurred.

You are wrong that this runner MUST be awarded home simply becuase the play at the plate is close. The key word is subsequently. What exactly happened in the "subsequently"? If the advance and play happen at a base beyond a base originally protected to because the defense throws the ball away could very well result in an out even on a very close play because the advance was not part of the obstruction.

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by GROUPthink

That's still the case in NFHS baseball. All obstruction is delayed dead and there's a minimum award of one advance base. No idea about softball -- I don't work the sport.

OK I stand corrected about NF baseball.. I have not worked that sport for many many years but thought I had read on another thread that they had done away with minimum one base award. Certainly not that way in softball.