Obstruction

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by GROUPthink

I get your points -- as a baseball umpire, I also set an initial award. However, post-obstruction evidence can change that award. And to me, that makes sense. At least in baseball, the idea is to figure out the result absent the obstruction. And a great defensive play or a terrible throw after the obstruction happens certainly can affect the predicted result.

I can live with the fact the sports are different. Tomato, tomahto.

Thing is, how do you know that whatever the subsequent play may be was not a result of the obstruction or the runner or coach reacting differently because of the call?

I've seen players stop playing because an umpire verbalizes obstruction, runners and fielders alike. Remember, or at least in softball, OBS is not a punitive infraction, but one which attempts to undo the impedement.

I have no problem determining a base to which the runner is protected at the time of the OBS. AFA the ball getting by the OF, that is not a subsequent play, but part of the play upon which you are ruling. We discussed this a few years ago and that was pretty much the consensus. When we are talking subsequent play, it is a reference to a throw getting away or being missed by a defender which would give the runner additional opportunity to advance that was not part of nor affected by the OBS.

[youngump]

@Dakota
No, actually, I guess I can't either.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I have no problem determining a base to which the runner is protected at the time of the OBS. AFA the ball getting by the OF, that is not a subsequent play, but part of the play upon which you are ruling. We discussed this a few years ago and that was pretty much the consensus. When we are talking subsequent play, it is a reference to a throw getting away or being missed by a defender which would give the runner additional opportunity to advance that was not part of nor affected by the OBS.

This got me thinking. R1 at 2nd. Batter hits a deep high shot to right field. F9 is camped under it when the shortstop collides with R1 who was trying to go halfway. Obstruction. Do you decide immediately or wait to see if the ball is caught? And do you take into account the fact that the runner successfully got exactly where they wanted to go (halfway between 2nd and 3rd?)

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by youngump

This got me thinking. R1 at 2nd. Batter hits a deep high shot to right field. F9 is camped under it when the shortstop collides with R1 who was trying to go halfway. Obstruction. Do you decide immediately or wait to see if the ball is caught? And do you take into account the fact that the runner successfully got exactly where they wanted to go (halfway between 2nd and 3rd?)

Okay, it's obstruction. What's your point? Walk it through.

First part is that you cannot call that runner out between 2nd & 3rd. What would have happened had the instruction not occurred?

[UmpireErnie]

You have to make an initial determination as to where you are protecting. If a play is later made on the obstructed runner you need to know if you are going to call her out or call dead ball and enforce the OBS.

Several examples have been already given which show why you would be wrong to determine the award only after all play ends; here is an extreme one.

No runners, no outs. B1 gets a base hit thru the infield and rounds first. The ball is feilded by F7 and returned to the infield. B1 retreats toward 1B but trips over F3 several feet short of the bag. BU gives DDB signal.

F6 seeing R1 down hurries a throw to F3 which goes wide. R1 gets up and runs to 2B and on toward 3B. F3 recovers the ball and throws to F5 who tags R1 inches off 3B.

If you follow any of the "determine after the play' methods you could say that she lost several steps when she was going back to 1B so obvisouly she would have made 3B (she was tagged out by inches).

However at the time of OBS the ball was being held by F6 and the runner was retreating to 1B after rounding the bag on a clear single. If I am BU, I am going to have determined at the time of OBS that without the OBS she is ending up safe at 1B. By rule (with exceptions) she cannot be put out between 1B and 2B and if she is I am going to kill the play and award 1B. If she gets put out beyond 1B we have an out!

As you can see there is big difference between these two methods.

[UmpireErnie]

This bears repeating. OBS is not meant to be a punitive call, but a corrective one. We are trying to "undo" the effect of the OBS.

Years ago there was in both NFHS baseball and softball an automatic minimum award of the next base.. a true penalty since that was a base that often a base the runner was not going to obtain.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

This bears repeating. OBS is not meant to be a punitive call, but a corrective one. We are trying to "undo" the effect of the OBS.

Years ago there was in both NFHS baseball and softball an automatic minimum award of the next base.. a true penalty since that was a base that often a base the runner was not going to obtain.

That's still the case in NFHS baseball. All obstruction is delayed dead and there's a minimum award of one advance base. No idea about softball -- I don't work the sport.

[umpire12]

"First part is that you cannot call that runner out between 2nd & 3rd. What would have happened had the instruction not occurred?"


i think the point he is making is how do you determine what would have happened if the obstruction not occured if you have yet to determine if the ball was even caught yet?



"Many umpires have a difficult enough time determining what should happen based on what they are watching, let alone the need to consider a multitude of "what if" scenarios when making a decision".

seems like you have to consider a lot of "what ifs" if you are making a determination of runner protection while the ball is still in the air or yet to be played on

[youngump]

Originally Posted by umpire12

"First part is that you cannot call that runner out between 2nd & 3rd. What would have happened had the instruction not occurred?"

i think the point he is making is how do you determine what would have happened if the obstruction not occured if you have yet to determine if the ball was even caught yet?

Yes that was my point. The obstruction has already been neutralized by the time the ball is played. And we still have to protect the runner between 2nd and 3rd. But what base are we awarding? Let's say that the ball drops and the runner trips over his own feet and falls to the ground where he's tagged out.
Punitively, we take away the out. But now, we have to decide what base to put the runner on and I'm really not sure quite what to do since absent the obstruction the result of the play would have been an out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by youngump

Yes that was my point. The obstruction has already been neutralized by the time the ball is played. And we still have to protect the runner between 2nd and 3rd. But what base are we awarding? Let's say that the ball drops and the runner trips over his own feet and falls to the ground where he's tagged out.
Punitively, we take away the out. But now, we have to decide what base to put the runner on and I'm really not sure quite what to do since absent the obstruction the result of the play would have been an out.

Speaking ASA

Don't overthink it. See the OBS, signal DDB, envision how the play would unfold and "see" the base to which you believe the runner would have advanced has s/he not been obstructed. And, remember, no one is suggesting you be stingy, but do not be unbelieveably excessive.

Say a runner is OBS coming around 1B, you give the DDB and see the ball is still rolling to the fence, but with the fielder about to reach it. In your mind you may be thinking "okay, 2nd is a given, 3rd might be tight, but I doubt she would score". Okay, 3rd it is. That is your protection and award base.

As the runner advances, the defense makes a good relay and it is a close play at 3rd, but the ball gets away from F5 and the runner attempts to score and is thrown out by a step. The runner is out.The runner's ability to advance to the plate was not affected by the OBS.

There is no doubt that this "sight" is improved with experience and understanding of the level of competition. Like I said, no one is suggesting you be stingy, just fair without being absurd.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by GROUPthink

That's still the case in NFHS baseball. All obstruction is delayed dead and there's a minimum award of one advance base. No idea about softball -- I don't work the sport.

Well, maybe it should be more like softball.

In my area, when Fed had the automatic award, many umpires refused to call OBS on any defender dropping a knee to block the base on a pick-off play simply because they did not believe in awarding the runner a base undeserved. Once that was changed to reflect the ASA award, more OBS were called and eventually, the players stopped dropping the knee when it was realized they were no longer going to get the out call, and the bruised leg just wasn't worth it.

Not much different then some umpires ignoring an IP because they don't want to move runners as that is purely a punitive award especially if there is a runner beyond 1B. We can stand around all day and say it isn't so, but it is and anyone who has been around long enough has probably seen this.

Obviously, there are times when a rule or reward may need to be punitive, but it certainly shouldn't be the standard response to an infraction.

[EsqUmp]

How the hell is anyone going to know what an umpire's original "determination" is? It's in the umpire's head not displayed on the scoreboard.

My original point was this: If the umpire made the immediate determination to protect the runner to 3rd base only and the runner subsequently got thrown out by a hair at the plate, he better award that runner home. I don't care what he thought immediately - obviously he was wrong. Equity says to award the runner home.

[x-tremeump]

EsqUmp +1

[ronald]

Originally Posted by esqump

how the hell is anyone going to know what an umpire's original "determination" is? It's in the umpire's head not displayed on the scoreboard.

My original point was this: If the umpire made the immediate determination to protect the runner to 3rd base only and the runner subsequently got thrown out by a hair at the plate, he better award that runner home. I don't care what he thought immediately - obviously he was wrong. Equity says to award the runner home.

-1

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

How the hell is anyone going to know what an umpire's original "determination" is? It's in the umpire's head not displayed on the scoreboard.

My original point was this: If the umpire made the immediate determination to protect the runner to 3rd base only and the runner subsequently got thrown out by a hair at the plate, he better award that runner home. I don't care what he thought immediately - obviously he was wrong. Equity says to award the runner home.

You are absolutely correct that there is no way to know what base the umpire calling OBS is protecting to. Unless someone changes the mechanics of calling OBS you will not ever know until after the play. But as the offense you do know the obstructed runner cannot be put out between the two bases where OBS occurred.

You are wrong that this runner MUST be awarded home simply becuase the play at the plate is close. The key word is subsequently. What exactly happened in the "subsequently"? If the advance and play happen at a base beyond a base originally protected to because the defense throws the ball away could very well result in an out even on a very close play because the advance was not part of the obstruction.

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by GROUPthink

That's still the case in NFHS baseball. All obstruction is delayed dead and there's a minimum award of one advance base. No idea about softball -- I don't work the sport.

OK I stand corrected about NF baseball.. I have not worked that sport for many many years but thought I had read on another thread that they had done away with minimum one base award. Certainly not that way in softball.