How would you handle?

[Andy]

I've had occasions where I wasn't sure exactly what my partner was calling or ruling on and approached him/her to get clairification. I can't ever recall a situation like the one in the OP where my partner totally kicked a ruling that needed to be corrected. There have been judgement calls that I didn't agree with, but judgement is judgement and there is no way I am attempting to change my partner's judgement call.

I see no issue with initiating a conference with your partner when you are not sure what the call is or what ruling is being applied.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Andy

I see no issue with initiating a conference with your partner when you are not sure what the call is or what ruling is being applied.

I agree, there is no problem with a conference, but that is how it needs to appear, two guys/gals/whatever discussing what just happened, not the PU interjecting him/her/whatself into the situation.

And in doing so, it would start with eye contact with my partner and have him/her/whatever come at least seem to be moving in my direction for a conversation. I do not want to do anything which even remotely makes it seem as if I am usurping his/her/whatever's authority. We all still have a game to officiate.

When all is settled in the discussion, the umpire needs to correct the error. If necessary, give both coaches a briefing on the updated ruling with reason. Better to do this away from the dugout or fans just so you can have a straight discussion without the *******s screaming over his/her/whatever shoulder and interrupting the conversation.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by irishmafia

i agree, there is no problem with a conference, but that is how it needs to appear, two guys/gals/whatever discussing what just happened, not the pu interjecting him/her/whatself into the situation.

And in doing so, it would start with eye contact with my partner and have him/her/whatever come at least seem to be moving in my direction for a conversation. I do not want to do anything which even remotely makes it seem as if i am usurping his/her/whatever's authority. We all still have a game to officiate.

When all is settled in the discussion, the umpire needs to correct the error. If necessary, give both coaches a briefing on the updated ruling with reason. Better to do this away from the dugout or fans just so you can have a straight discussion without the *******s screaming over his/her/whatever shoulder and interrupting the conversation.

+1

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

+1

+2

[Tru_in_Blu]

Didn't want to start a new string, so I'll just add here.

HS Varsity, NFHS, but it doesn't really matter. I have plate. Runner on 2B and a fly ball to slightly left of center. I came out from behind the plate and slightly up 3B line to get a good view because F6 had drifted into my line of vision.

I noticed partner had not moved from his position in C to come inside, and to be fair, he didn't really have time to get inside as this was not a high fly ball.

I saw the catch, and because of where my partner was, started to go up the line for help on a possible tag play at third.

Runner went to third, throw came to third late enough to not even warrant a call.

I returned to the plate area as defense is discussing the runner leaving early. Apparently, one of the infielders appealed to my partner. He called time out and walked in toward me announcing for all to hear that the appeal on the tag up was my call.

What would you have done?

Thanx.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Didn't want to start a new string, so I'll just add here.

HS Varsity, NFHS, but it doesn't really matter. I have plate. Runner on 2B and a fly ball to slightly left of center. I came out from behind the plate and slightly up 3B line to get a good view because F6 had drifted into my line of vision.

I noticed partner had not moved from his position in C to come inside, and to be fair, he didn't really have time to get inside as this was not a high fly ball.

I saw the catch, and because of where my partner was, started to go up the line for help on a possible tag play at third.

Runner went to third, throw came to third late enough to not even warrant a call.

I returned to the plate area as defense is discussing the runner leaving early. Apparently, one of the infielders appealed to my partner. He called time out and walked in toward me announcing for all to hear that the appeal on the tag up was my call.

What would you have done?

Thanx.

Ruled on the appeal, then told my partner after the game that he needed to be not so lazy, get his butt inside in time to see the catch and runner.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Didn't want to start a new string, so I'll just add here.

HS Varsity, NFHS, but it doesn't really matter. I have plate. Runner on 2B and a fly ball to slightly left of center. I came out from behind the plate and slightly up 3B line to get a good view because F6 had drifted into my line of vision.

I noticed partner had not moved from his position in C to come inside, and to be fair, he didn't really have time to get inside as this was not a high fly ball.

I saw the catch, and because of where my partner was, started to go up the line for help on a possible tag play at third.

Runner went to third, throw came to third late enough to not even warrant a call.

I returned to the plate area as defense is discussing the runner leaving early. Apparently, one of the infielders appealed to my partner. He called time out and walked in toward me announcing for all to hear that the appeal on the tag up was my call.

What would you have done?

Thanx.

Stayed home. Let's see - you've got catch, tag, and possible play at home if the ball gets away. What exactly was partner expecting to cover? If he stayed out, 3rd is his call.

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Stayed home. Let's see - you've got catch, tag, and possible play at home if the ball gets away. What exactly was partner expecting to cover? If he stayed out, 3rd is his call.

If he stayed out OR came in that call at 3B is his/her call!! Last runner to 3B is base umpires call!! And that tag up is base umpires call.

Now what would I have done? Made sure time was called, walked to meet my partner and told them where nobody else could hear us that it was their call to make, now if you didnt' see it here is what I saw to help you make that call but that's your call.....and it was your call at 3B also. Again not to fault what anyone did, if you see your base umpire is out of position/not paying any attention to the play someone needs to see it so you may have to take that call at 3B but on a dead ball appeal like that I would take that time to make sure my partner knew that was their call and they should make it (possibly with my help since they saw NOTHING)

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Andy

Ruled on the appeal, then told my partner after the game that he needed to be not so lazy, get his butt inside in time to see the catch and runner.

I prefer the other option stated in this thread. Somewhere down the road, another PU would get lambasted by this HS coach for NOT making the call, since you are making it in your game. Better this BU be corrected for being wrong than set up another umpire who is right.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I prefer the other option stated in this thread. Somewhere down the road, another PU would get lambasted by this HS coach for NOT making the call, since you are making it in your game. Better this BU be corrected for being wrong than set up another umpire who is right.

I know what the correct mechanic is and who should make what call in this situation. The question was what would I have done in that situation and I answered that. I'm definitely correcting my partner, but not in the middle of the game. That is a post game or between innings conversation between me and him.

Steve - are you saying that this would look better:

BU: I have an appeal on the runner leaving early - Partner, that's your call!

PU: No it's not...by the manual, it's your call.

One of two things happens now

1) BU guesses at the appeal call since he had his back to the catch
2) BU and PU continue to argue about who the call belongs to

I don't like either of those options....

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Andy

I know what the correct mechanic is and who should make what call in this situation. The question was what would I have done in that situation and I answered that. I'm definitely correcting my partner, but not in the middle of the game. That is a post game or between innings conversation between me and him.

Steve - are you saying that this would look better:

BU: I have an appeal on the runner leaving early - Partner, that's your call!

PU: No it's not...by the manual, it's your call.

One of two things happens now

1) BU guesses at the appeal call since he had his back to the catch
2) BU and PU continue to argue about who the call belongs to

I don't like either of those options....

I like DaveASA/Fed's answer; tell the partner what you saw, and have him make the call (his call).

I also agree we don't need to argue about that on the field. If he doesn't grasp that it is his call after being told so (and I am thinking you get what I get when we tell a partner he screwed up, so this should be rare), THEN I agree jsut make the call and move on until postgame.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Thanx for the suggestions and comments.

I did what some have suggested.

After time was called, we met half-way from his position in C and home plate. After making his announcement to all that it was my call, I quietly told him, that no, sole runner is the BU responsibility. He started with the lead runner is the PU's responsibility at which I mentioned that the term "lead runner" applied to situations with more than 1 runner. I think he got it at that point.

He asked if I saw the runner tag up. I told him that I saw the runner take a couple of steps off the bag once the ball was hit, and then head back. But I did not actually see if she left early. Maybe that's something I should have been paying more attention to, but my immediate concern was possibly helping on a play at third, thinking he certainly had the tag up.

At that point, he turned around and gave a loud SAFE! call/signal and headed back to "C".

Regarding the comment about the head coach getting on another PU for not making a similar call, I don't think we need to worry about that. This particular HS coach is a local legend with multiple state championship teams including a string of maybe 5 to 6 years in a row. His team, staff, and former players celebrated his 500th softball victory last season. Even as a coach, I'm sure he knows a lot more about the HS rule set than I probably do.

After the game, my partner and I discussed it, and I got the feeling that he still thought this was my fault. There was no way he could get inside and watch the catch and the tag on a ball that was hit that hard. And I should have been able to help him out more than I did.

I think he used up his 3 strikes. First, by perhaps taking the play off in the first place. Second, by erroneously announcing that it was my call on the tag up. Third, by continuing to try to implicate me in his misadventures.

If he had conceded that he made a mistake, I could be more accepting. But it was more like, don't worry about what I did wrong, why weren't you able to help me out more.

He's a senior official, on our board since 1998. I'm just the rookie, I guess.

But I do read the book.

[ronald]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Thanx for the suggestions and comments.

I did what some have suggested.

After time was called, we met half-way from his position in C and home plate. After making his announcement to all that it was my call, I quietly told him, that no, sole runner is the BU responsibility. He started with the lead runner is the PU's responsibility at which I mentioned that the term "lead runner" applied to situations with more than 1 runner. I think he got it at that point.

He asked if I saw the runner tag up. I told him that I saw the runner take a couple of steps off the bag once the ball was hit, and then head back. But I did not actually see if she left early. Maybe that's something I should have been paying more attention to, but my immediate concern was possibly helping on a play at third, thinking he certainly had the tag up.

At that point, he turned around and gave a loud SAFE! call/signal and headed back to "C".

Regarding the comment about the head coach getting on another PU for not making a similar call, I don't think we need to worry about that. This particular HS coach is a local legend with multiple state championship teams including a string of maybe 5 to 6 years in a row. His team, staff, and former players celebrated his 500th softball victory last season. Even as a coach, I'm sure he knows a lot more about the HS rule set than I probably do.

After the game, my partner and I discussed it, and I got the feeling that he still thought this was my fault. There was no way he could get inside and watch the catch and the tag on a ball that was hit that hard. And I should have been able to help him out more than I did.

I think he used up his 3 strikes. First, by perhaps taking the play off in the first place. Second, by erroneously announcing that it was my call on the tag up. Third, by continuing to try to implicate me in his misadventures.

If he had conceded that he made a mistake, I could be more accepting. But it was more like, don't worry about what I did wrong, why weren't you able to help me out more.

He's a senior official, on our board since 1998. I'm just the rookie, I guess.

But I do read the book.

in hindsight and based on your op post, do you think you could have deviated from the prescribed mechanic on this play? It appears from the op description that yIou did not move towards 3b until after the catch (that is my reading). With the bu still at C, it would be extremely difficult for him to make an accurate judgement on a runner leaving early.

You handled the missteps of your partner putting you on the spot appropriately and he should have taken responsibility for knowing his duties on tag ups and whose call it is. Maybe next time he will and will learn from this snafu.

This type of play happens often in our game and the PU needs to be ready to help out on it IMO and it is what I do. I do not remember pregaming this deviation but I have deviated from from it a couple of times.