HS SB Incident Report

[Andy]

One of my duties with our HS association is to receive and respond to incident reports submitted by our umpires. I've pasted a recent report below with the identifying information removed. I would like your thoughts and comments:

In the bottom of the fourth inning. Bases loaded, 2 outs, batter has two strikes. The pitcher delivers the next pitch. Batter swings at the pitch. The pitch hits her hands and rolls forward. My call is "Dead ball strike" Rule7 Section2 Article g. and since this is the 3rd strike I call her out.

The home team head coach, comes out and says "She is in the box. That's a foul ball"

I respond that "Her standing in the box has nothing to do with it coach"

He says "I got a hundred bucks that says that that is a foul ball if she is standing in the box"

I respond (And I know I shouldn't have!) "That I got five hundred that says a dead ball strike has nothing to do with her still being in the box"

Then my base umpire comes over and asks me "What's up" I tell him that "The ball hit the batter while swinging and I called a dead ball strike"

My partner tells me "That's a foul ball" I shake my head no in disgust, and say "No it's not"

Of course, the head coach the hears my partner, and says to me "Are you going to let your call stand!" And I say "Yes coach."

Now to the top of the seventh inning. An assistant coach is catching, warming up the pitcher. When he is done he says to me "I am going to contact (xxxxx), tell him about the horrible call you made, and give him our email address so you can send us the five hundred dollars you owe us!"

I said "That fine coach"

The assistant coach says "Well you are wrong"
I say "Well maybe coach, but I don't think so"
The assistant coach says "Well you are wrong, and you know you are wrong. Why don't you read the rule book and learn the rules."

I tell him "That's enough coach"
The assistant coach says "Your wrong and you don't know the rules"
I again say "That's enough coach"

He then pick up his rule book and says "Here's the rule book, do you want to read it?"
I then tell this assistant coach "You need to leave the game coach"

I took some enforcement from the head coach to finally get the assistant coach to leave the game.

This is the first coach I have ever kicked out of a game. I hated doing it. Here is my thoughts. Had my partner not come up to me unasked, and said loud enough for the head coach to hear that I was wrong and that the call should have been a foul ball, none of this would have happened.

[RKBUmp]

Probably should not have argued with head coach so much, just stated what rule was, end discussion and continue with game. Their partner should also not have interjected themselves into situation without being asked (also obviously needs to do a lot more studying of the rule book).

As for assistant coach, should have told him that situation was over and was not going to be discussed any further. That being said, when does the umpire get his $500 from the coaches?

[ronald]

I have no problem with the ejection as it is described. It is worded factually and no tone words are used which could indicate that the conversation went straight forward with no emotional outbursts or unruly, etc behaviour.

Points of interest are how to handle the phrase I gotta a hundred ... and the umps' reply. You already probably know the two camps' thoughts on this way of handling a challenge so you will have to go with the one you promote.

On the overhearing of his partner's mistaken rules knowledge, this is one of those situations that umpires have to make sure no one is listening. So you can point this out to him and how to do it.

After the first that is enough, he could have moved away from the area of the coach and ignored the second statement by the assistan head coach. he did not and it went to the next level.

[MD Longhorn]

Base umpire needs some serious remedial umpiring classes. He was the most egregious offender here.

1) Do NOT join a conference between your partner and a coach until asked.
2) When asked, your conference with your partner should be AWAY from any coaches and unhearable by coaches.
3) Learn what a foul ball is and what the ball has to hit FIRST to become one, and then learn what a HBP is, and understand how those definitions do not overlap. Ever.

Plate umpire needs to learn where the line is. He crossed it when talking to Head Coach. Then he utterly failed to properly act when assistant coach crossed it (repeatedly). The commentary while warming up the pitcher should have been abruptly cut off about 5 words in. Also - don't say "That's enough" unless it IS enough... if you're going to let them keep going, it wasn't enough. Continuing after "That's enough" should be an ejection.

Lastly, the attitude of "I hated to eject him" tells me he's not doing his job. Coaches eject themselves, we merely announce it. He's just made life harder on every umpire that follows him.

[ronald]

when a coach wants to keep discussing a rule decision he/she disagrees with i use the i have made my decision coach, let's play ball, turn away and walk to my position routine. it has not failed me yet.

as mb notes, bu needs some instruction as he exacerbated the situation, especially by openly disagreeing with the pu. that language has to be out of earshot.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Base umpire needs some serious remedial umpiring classes. He was the most egregious offender here.

1) Do NOT join a conference between your partner and a coach until asked.
2) When asked, your conference with your partner should be AWAY from any coaches and unhearable by coaches.
3) Learn what a foul ball is and what the ball has to hit FIRST to become one, and then learn what a HBP is, and understand how those definitions do not overlap. Ever.

Plate umpire needs to learn where the line is. He crossed it when talking to Head Coach. Then he utterly failed to properly act when assistant coach crossed it (repeatedly). The commentary while warming up the pitcher should have been abruptly cut off about 5 words in. Also - don't say "That's enough" unless it IS enough... if you're going to let them keep going, it wasn't enough. Continuing after "That's enough" should be an ejection.

Lastly, the attitude of "I hated to eject him" tells me he's not doing his job. Coaches eject themselves, we merely announce it. He's just made life harder on every umpire that follows him.

+1

I agree completely, BU needs some wall to wall counseling on rules and game management. The good is the PU acknowledged he shouldn't have engaged in that discussion with the HC the way he did. I believe he should be counseled to stand firm with a coach when a warning is given, especially with an assistant.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Yep, partner should have kept his mouth shut.

And the discussion lasted longer than it should have, but it was the coach who raised the financial opportunity and I don't know if I could have walked away from that one. I could use the money.

AFA the Asst. Coach, maybe the ejection was too light. I would have been tempted to call the HC over and give him the option: AC is ejected, or the AC can take that rule book to the parking lot and when he finds the rule which states a HBP on a swing and a miss is a foul ball, he can once again enter the field on which I am umpiring.

May never see that guy again

[marvin]

If this is the report to the state ruling body it is too long and wordy IMO.

The ejection report should be confined to the act that the coach committed that caused him/her to be ejected.

In the bottom of the fourth inning. Bases loaded, 2 outs, batter has two strikes. The pitcher delivers the next pitch. Batter swings at the pitch. The pitch hits her hands and rolls forward. My call is "Dead ball strike" Rule7 Section2 Article g. and since this is the 3rd strike I call her out.

Good call.

The home team head coach, comes out and says "She is in the box. That's a foul ball"

I respond that "Her standing in the box has nothing to do with it coach"

A better response would have been that the batter was struck by a pitched ball - not by a batted ball. Since she swung at the pitch it is a strike.

He says "I got a hundred bucks that says that that is a foul ball if she is standing in the box"

I respond (And I know I shouldn't have!) "That I got five hundred that says a dead ball strike has nothing to do with her still being in the box"

The conversation should have ended at this point. Nothing was being added to the discussion that was on point. When the coach offered the wager the conversation should have ended.

Then my base umpire comes over

I agree 100% that you should never enter a discussion/conference between your partner and a coach unless you see that you need to separate them.

and asks me "What's up" I tell him that "The ball hit the batter while swinging and I called a dead ball strike"

My partner tells me "That's a foul ball" I shake my head no in disgust, and say "No it's not"

The BU was totally wrong to initiate discussion with the PU while the coach could hear them, but the PU was also wrong for letting the BU engage him while the coach was still there.

Of course, the head coach the hears my partner, and says to me "Are you going to let your call stand!" And I say "Yes coach."

This would not have happened if the PU had handled the situation correctly, even with the gaffe by the BU.

Now to the top of the seventh inning. An assistant coach is catching, warming up the pitcher. When he is done he says to me "I am going to contact (xxxxx), tell him about the horrible call you made, and give him our email address so you can send us the five hundred dollars you owe us!"

As I wrote earlier the "wager" should have never happened. IMO, it was unprofessional and just put gas on the fire of a bad situation.

I said "That fine coach"

The assistant coach says "Well you are wrong"
I say "Well maybe coach, but I don't think so"
The assistant coach says "Well you are wrong, and you know you are wrong. Why don't you read the rule book and learn the rules."

I tell him "That's enough coach"
The assistant coach says "Your wrong and you don't know the rules"
I again say "That's enough coach"

He then pick up his rule book and says "Here's the rule book, do you want to read it?"
I then tell this assistant coach "You need to leave the game coach"

I took some enforcement from the head coach to finally get the assistant coach to leave the game.

The asst. coach was justly ejected, but better handling of the initial situation might have prevented it.

This is the first coach I have ever kicked out of a game. I hated doing it. Here is my thoughts. Had my partner not come up to me unasked, and said loud enough for the head coach to hear that I was wrong and that the call should have been a foul ball, none of this would have happened.

Both the umpires and coaches should be striving to present a professional demeanor and to be an example of good sportsmanship to the players. In this situation both parties failed in that regard. I do feel that the ejection of the coach was justified, but better handling of the original situation might have prevented it.

As mentioned earlier in the thread the BU was way out of line in his behavior. In every situation you have to take the action that supports your partner.

[tidefanintenn]

my first comment would be:

Coach we have a dead ball swinging strike 3 for the out. When coach brings up foul, I would then explain to him 1 time " Coach by rule if a pitched ball hits a player we have a dead ball. Also by rule if the batter is swinging at the pitch we also have a dead ball strike.

If my partner intercedes without me asking him. I will not do much other than tell him he is incorrect that the rule is and as I qouted above.

When assistant coach starts in and I tell him I have already ruled and it is not changing. I stop the pitcher warming up and ask the head coach to find me someone else to warm up the pitcher as his assistant is no longer a part of this game.



Report would be short and sweet. Assistant coach was ejected after continuing to argue a call after being requested to stop.

[SRW]

Andy, what is it you're looking for here? How to deal with the reporting umpire, or the partner, or how to advise the crew, or what?

[Andy]

Originally Posted by SRW

Andy, what is it you're looking for here? How to deal with the reporting umpire, or the partner, or how to advise the crew, or what?

All of the above....I have already responded to the PU that submitted the report and am having one of our other staff talk to the BU.

I have basically covered with the PU all that has been said by all of you. I put it out there just to get reaction and to see if anybody came up with something I may have not thought of.

To update the situation, I received a report from the coach in question....his version of the incident is similar, but not the same as the PU. The coach's report describes that the initial call was the batter swinging and hitting the ball which then came back and hit her bat a second time while she was still in the batter's box. FYI...the head coach and the asst coach are wife and husband. Wife is a teacher at the school and the listed head coach, but husband does most of the coaching...and he can be a pain that thinks he knows all the rules and exactly how umpires should behave. He also wants his $500. I have a call into PU to try to get more details...

Regardless, there is plenty that both sides could have done different to handle the situation.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by marvin

If this is the report to the state ruling body it is too long and wordy IMO.

I think that it gives all of the pertinent information. It helps to have some of the history as well, in a report. We are encouraged to include this type of info in our reports.

[RKBUmp]

Big difference between getting hit in the hands on a swing and ball contacting the bat a second time. Umpire doesnt indicate if he made immediate ruling or if there was a delay which could have led coach to believing there was an initial different ruling. Did base ump file a report? If so what are his version of events?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Big difference between getting hit in the hands on a swing and ball contacting the bat a second time. Umpire doesnt indicate if he made immediate ruling or if there was a delay which could have led coach to believing there was an initial different ruling. Did base ump file a report? If so what are his version of events?

Here's the BU's report:

Originally Posted by BaseUmpInNeedOfTraining

I was in the C position with a runner on first. The batter swung at the pitch just as I was checking out the hot mom on the first base side. My partner called a dead ball instead of a foul ball when it hit the batters hands. Everyone knows the hands are part of the bat - even the coach did. I came in while they were arguing and told them both that my partner was wrong, hoping they'd fix it. But partner didn't fix it.

The next half inning, I was standing by the fence talking about the play with some parents, telling them what a tool my partner was when I heard some commotion around home plate. Apparently my partner ejected the dude that was warming up the pitcher - I guess he wasn't wearing a mask, like I always make them do. I don't know, I didn't ask him about it afterward cause I had a hot date and the minute the game was over, I jetted out of there straight to my car.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Here's the BU's report: