Substitute R1 never enters game, but it's undiscoverred

[DTQ_Blue]

Situation, HS varsity ball... An unreported substitute gets a BB and after reaching first is discovered to be an URS. This is the 2nd URS violation for team A so the runner and coach are bench restricted. The coach of team A is told by PU to enter a substitute as R1. PU is asked by BU, if the URS should be out and is told no. PU reports bench restrictions to coach of Team B and their scorer. Coach of Team B says URS should be out and is told no. After all the delay play resumes, except Team A has not sent the substitute in to be R1. PU doesn't notice that there is no R1. BU does and thinks of bringing this to PUs attention but does not. There was 1 out at this time. A second out is made, then Team A scores several runs before 3rd out is made. Team B coach approaches PU after half inning and wants clarification on how R1 could just disappear with no out called. PU confirms with BU that R1 never occupied the base after the removal of the URS. Coach of Team A wants to know what's going on and when told that Team B is asking about why R1 disappeared, he says because she was out due to being an URS. Any comments.

[BretMan]

This post is a good example of why the coaches and umpires shouldn't get together for heavy drinking before a game.

- You're a coach and you've already been busted once for not reporting a sub. How asleep at the wheel do you have to be to do this again?

- You're the plate umpire and you've had two issues with unreported subs so far. Then, after telling a coach he needs to enter a sub, and you've already had two problems with them not reporting, and you're the guy responsible for recording a sub...how in the heck do you let the game start back up without recording the substitution you just told the coach he had to make?

- You're the base umpire and you notice a runner is missing. So you just...keep your mouth shut and let it slide?

- You're the defensive coach and you notice a runner is missing, right after you've been told the runner is not out. Should you ask what's going on right then, or wait until the inning is over?

- You're the offensive coach and you think that your player has been called out for a rule violation, which would be the second out. Another out is made which (at least in your mind) should end the inning. But they don't switch sides and keep playing until another out is made. Did you just think that they were being generous and giving your team four outs today?

I suppose that the last inevitable question is what might be done to "fix" this. You might get an argument that the runner who disappeared/never showed up should have been called out and that might negate some of the runs that scored afterwards, or maybe that the run made by this player who was supposed to be there should be counted, since she would have scored if the umpires had made sure she was on base.

For whichever coach that even tries a lame argument like that...sorry. We're way past the point of where an appeal or protest could be made, so we're stuck with what we have. And if you don't like it...we can discuss it at the bar after the game!

[EsqUmp]

Shameful conduct by all parties here.



The runner is, by rule, out for abandoning her base and entering dead ball territory. That's out #2. Then you said there was another out. That's out #3. The fact that the inning continued when it was officially over is ridiculous. All play after that should be nullified. You have to correct the situation and try to make right what went absurdly wrong.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

...The runner is, by rule, out for abandoning her base and entering dead ball territory...

Which runner would that be?

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Which runner would that be?

The unreported non-substitute. Duh!
(Perhaps we were playing ghost runners?)

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BretMan

This post is a good example of why the coaches and umpires shouldn't get together for heavy drinking before a game.

- You're a coach and you've already been busted once for not reporting a sub. How asleep at the wheel do you have to be to do this again?

- You're the plate umpire and you've had two issues with unreported subs so far. Then, after telling a coach he needs to enter a sub, and you've already had two problems with them not reporting, and you're the guy responsible for recording a sub...how in the heck do you let the game start back up without recording the substitution you just told the coach he had to make?

- You're the base umpire and you notice a runner is missing. So you just...keep your mouth shut and let it slide?

- You're the defensive coach and you notice a runner is missing, right after you've been told the runner is not out. Should you ask what's going on right then, or wait until the inning is over?

- You're the offensive coach and you think that your player has been called out for a rule violation, which would be the second out. Another out is made which (at least in your mind) should end the inning. But they don't switch sides and keep playing until another out is made. Did you just think that they were being generous and giving your team four outs today?

I suppose that the last inevitable question is what might be done to "fix" this. You might get an argument that the runner who disappeared/never showed up should have been called out and that might negate some of the runs that scored afterwards, or maybe that the run made by this player who was supposed to be there should be counted, since she would have scored if the umpires had made sure she was on base.

For whichever coach that even tries a lame argument like that...sorry. We're way past the point of where an appeal or protest could be made, so we're stuck with what we have. And if you don't like it...we can discuss it at the bar after the game!

+1

I hate to throw umpires under the bus, but if this is an accurate portrayal of what happened, both BU and PU need some remedial training. BU only made one mistake, but it was an egregious one. PU needs to learn lineup management and game management.

That said, by the time this was brought up by DC, it's too late for a remedy.

[Rich Ives]

Softball needs to grow up and adopt the baseball unannounced sub rule.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Softball needs to grow up and adopt the baseball unannounced sub rule.

Rich....anyway you could post the key points to BB's rule?
I'm just curious. I haven't done baseball for years now so I'm not even remotely familiar with it. I'm assuming it's under the Fed code?
Thnx

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Rich....anyway you could post the key points to BB's rule?
I'm just curious. I haven't done baseball for years now so I'm not even remotely familiar with it. I'm assuming it's under the Fed code?
Thnx

An unannounced sub is officially in the game when they take their position and play commences (FED). In OBR it's when play commences except for the pitcher who is in the game as soon as he assumes his position on the rubber.

No fuss, no muss, no outs, no restrictions, no gamesmanship. They're in. It's over.

[azbigdawg]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

An unannounced sub is officially in the game when they take their position and play commences (FED). In OBR it's when play commences except for the pitcher who is in the game as soon as he assumes his position on the rubber.

No fuss, no muss, no outs, no restrictions, no gamesmanship. They're in. It's over.

That is WAY too simple and logical....

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

... no gamesmanship....

If there is no penalty for the unannounced sub, that would seem to be an open invitation to gamesmanship. Maybe baseball managers never try to cheat?

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Softball needs to grow up and adopt the baseball unannounced sub rule.

The problem with that idea is this: if an unreported sub comes into the game (let's say the 3rd inn.) and nobody notices, you don't have 'em down in your lineup card. Then, later in the 5th, the OC reports the same person as a sub.

When the opposing coach comes out to appeal an illegal sub, how are you able to resolve this? They're not in HP's lineup. They're not going to be in the offensive team's book (if they're smart). They'll only be in the defensive team's book. You gonna take that as gospel? (Around here, you're not gonna find an "official book" that's not on one of the team's benches.)

I agree it would probably make things easier, but the baseball rule is not without it's problems.

[EsqUmp]

My state high school association adopted the MLB unreported substitute rule 20+ years ago. There is no penalty for an unreported substitute. Though some argue that this will make for a free-for-all, that couldn't be farther from the truth. We still require substitutes to be announced, but don't penalize players for coaching mistakes. We still have possible penalties for unsporting conduct for continual non-reporting, but that never seems to be an issue.

We prefer participation over disqualification, especially at the amateur level. We don't even penalize major league baseball players and coaches for not reporting and they are getting paid millions.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Which runner would that be?

The runner who is now R1, who seemingly walked off with no one knowing.

Call the umpires out too for that matter.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Softball needs to grow up and adopt the baseball unannounced sub rule.

I'm not sure what maturity has to do with it, but...

Keep in mind that there as many different softball sanctioning bodies are there are for baseball. Not all softball associations penalize for this infraction- I guess those would be the ones that you consider "all grown up".