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Old Fri Mar 30, 2012, 02:50pm
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Coach draws a throw

R1 is on third base and R2 on second base. B1 hits a ground ball to F6. The third base coach runs in the direction of home plate to confuse F6.

This ruling is found in 8-6-16 where the penalty states:

Quote:
The ball is dead and the runner closest to home
plate at the time of the interference shall be declared out. Each other runner
must return to the last base touched at the time of the interference.
What happens to the batter-runner? An umpire in our association gave an answer on a test which stated the runner closest to home was out and the BR gets 1B. She got it wrong.

The only other answer where the runner closest to home was out included returning the batter to bat and assuming the count prior to the pitch. That's not the correct answer, is it?
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Old Fri Mar 30, 2012, 03:02pm
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Which ruleset? 8-6-16 isn't ASA...
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I haven't decided if I should call it from the dugout or the outfield. Apparently, both have really great views!

Screw green, it ain't easy being blue!

I won't be coming here that much anymore. I might check in now and again.
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Old Fri Mar 30, 2012, 03:50pm
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FED ruleset is what matches up. Dont know what other answer it could be. Just about any time there is interference the batter/runner is awarded 1st. The only time that I can think of right off it doesnt apply is if the act of interference was an attempt to break up a double play and the only other offensive player was the batter/runner.
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Old Fri Mar 30, 2012, 05:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCASAUmp View Post
Which ruleset? 8-6-16 isn't ASA...
Sorry. Fed ruleset.
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Old Fri Mar 30, 2012, 06:03pm
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Why would you think that the batter-runner isn't included as one of the runners that must return to the last base touched at the time of the interference?

Yes, there are some rules that apply exclusively to batters, or batter-runners or runners. But the rule book has plenty of places where the term "runner" is generically used to describe both a batter-runner and a runner.

Just a quick glance at the rule book found a handful. Take a look at FED rule 8-4-3, where it talks about the penalty for obstruction, it says that "the obstructed runner and each other runner affected by the obstruction are awarded the bases they would have reached...". This penalty could obviously include a batter-runner, even though the rule says "each runner".

Would your conclusion be that this rule doesn't apply to a batter-runner, because the rule refers only to runners?

A little further down in that section it talks about runners advancing without liability to be put out and base awards for batted or thrown balls that go out of play. All of the awards refer to runners- no mention of any batter-runners in there. Does this mean that the base awards don't apply to them?
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Old Sun Apr 01, 2012, 05:56pm
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And what about the coach? Eject for Unsportsmanlike conduct?
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Old Sun Apr 01, 2012, 07:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
And what about the coach? Eject for Unsportsmanlike conduct?
If you think he purposefully did it to draw a throw, why not?
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Dave

I haven't decided if I should call it from the dugout or the outfield. Apparently, both have really great views!

Screw green, it ain't easy being blue!

I won't be coming here that much anymore. I might check in now and again.
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Old Sun Apr 01, 2012, 07:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCASAUmp View Post
If you think he purposefully did it to draw a throw, why not?
I would hesitate to eject the coach. The rule book addresses a very specific play with a specific penalty. While the catchall "unsportsmanlike conduct" ejection could technically apply, I would hesitate to add additional penalties rather than merely enforce those specifically applicable to the rule.
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Old Sun Apr 01, 2012, 08:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EsqUmp View Post
I would hesitate to eject the coach. The rule book addresses a very specific play with a specific penalty. While the catchall "unsportsmanlike conduct" ejection could technically apply, I would hesitate to add additional penalties rather than merely enforce those specifically applicable to the rule.
Speaking purely ASA and not NFHS...

The rule only states that it is to be enforced if the coach's actions draw a throw. It makes no mention of whether it must be deliberate, only that his actions drew the throw. If I believe that the coach's actions were without a doubt committed with the specific intent of drawing a throw, that's unsportsmanlike, and they'll be gone.

Not trying to stray off-subject here, but take the following sitches. High fly ball near the first base coach's box. F3 has plenty of time to get there. However, in sitch 1, the coach attempts to get out of the way, but runs into F3. In sitch 2, the coach stomps his feet to confuse F3 into thinking another player is about to collide with her.

In sitch 1, I would just call the dead ball and the batter out. In sitch 2, that coach will be pondering their actions in the parking lot.

I'll give a coach or player the benefit of the doubt if I'm not absolutely certain that their actions were unsportsmanlike. But if I'm certain, they're gone.
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Dave

I haven't decided if I should call it from the dugout or the outfield. Apparently, both have really great views!

Screw green, it ain't easy being blue!

I won't be coming here that much anymore. I might check in now and again.
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Old Sun Apr 01, 2012, 08:30pm
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For the sake of argument...

ART. 13 . . . Unsporting acts shall not be committed, including, but not limited to:

a. use of words or actions to incite or try to incite spectators to demonstrate.

b. use of profanity, intimidation and/or deceitful tactics, or baiting or taunting; or

NOTE: The NFHS disapproves of any form of taunting which is intended or designed to embarrass, ridicule or demean others under any circumstances, including race, religion, gender or national origin.

c. behavior in any manner not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.
PENALTY: (Arts. 11 through 16) The umpire shall eject the offender from the game, unless the offense is judged to be of a minor nature. If minor, the umpire may warn the offender and eject if the offense is repeated. (Arts. 11, 13) For coaches who violate, the umpire may restrict the offender to bench/dugout for the remainder of the game, or eject the offender.
3.6.13 SITUATION C

With R1 on first and the defensive team's coach standing in her team's bench area nearest first base, F2 attempts to pick off R1 after the pitch. Simultaneous with R1 diving back into the base, the defensive team's coach tosses a ball down the line to give the appearance that F2's throw was wild. All the while, F3 has the ball. Against the instructions of the first-base coach, R1 starts for second, only to be tagged out by F3.

RULING: The defensive team's coach is guilty of obstruction and committing a flagrant unsporting act. The umpire shall call "obstruction" and signal delayed-dead ball at the time of the obstruction. Once R1 is tagged out after being obstructed, a dead ball is ruled and she is awarded the base(s) she would have made had there been no obstruction. She may not be called out between the two bases where she was obstructed. At the end of playing action, the coach shall be ejected and R1 remains at first base. (2-5-3; 8-3-2 Note)

Last edited by SNIPERBBB; Sun Apr 01, 2012 at 08:32pm.
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Old Mon Apr 02, 2012, 06:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BretMan View Post
Why would you think that the batter-runner isn't included as one of the runners that must return to the last base touched at the time of the interference?

Yes, there are some rules that apply exclusively to batters, or batter-runners or runners. But the rule book has plenty of places where the term "runner" is generically used to describe both a batter-runner and a runner.

Just a quick glance at the rule book found a handful. Take a look at FED rule 8-4-3, where it talks about the penalty for obstruction, it says that "the obstructed runner and each other runner affected by the obstruction are awarded the bases they would have reached...". This penalty could obviously include a batter-runner, even though the rule says "each runner".

Would your conclusion be that this rule doesn't apply to a batter-runner, because the rule refers only to runners?

A little further down in that section it talks about runners advancing without liability to be put out and base awards for batted or thrown balls that go out of play. All of the awards refer to runners- no mention of any batter-runners in there. Does this mean that the base awards don't apply to them?
What do you propose then happens with the BR assuming she hasn't reached 1st? The OP doesn't specify but my guess is this is the case.
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Old Mon Apr 02, 2012, 10:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EsqUmp View Post
I would hesitate to eject the coach. The rule book addresses a very specific play with a specific penalty. While the catchall "unsportsmanlike conduct" ejection could technically apply, I would hesitate to add additional penalties rather than merely enforce those specifically applicable to the rule.
I would also be reluctant to eject the coach in this situiation for the same reasons.
At best I might warn that this could be considered an unsportsmanlike act.
So far I have never actually had to enforce the "coach running and drawing a throw" rule.
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Old Mon Apr 02, 2012, 07:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe View Post
What do you propose then happens with the BR assuming she hasn't reached 1st? The OP doesn't specify but my guess is this is the case.
Good point. Too bad the rule doesn't explicity cover it!

I'd have to say that the B/R gets first base...assuming it is a "point not covered by the rules".
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Old Mon Apr 02, 2012, 07:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HugoTafurst View Post
I would also be reluctant to eject the coach in this situiation for the same reasons.
At best I might warn that this could be considered an unsportsmanlike act.
So far I have never actually had to enforce the "coach running and drawing a throw" rule.
My inclination would be to penalize per the rule and to only eject if this wahoo does it again.

This is also one of those rules I've never had to enforce. Though I almost had it come up one time.

Some over-hyped rec ball coach coaching third waved his runner home and as she tried to score he ran right along beside her all the way to the plate, screaming encouragement and yelling for her to slide when she reached the plate.

The guy was so close, and he came up behind me on my blindside, that when I signalled the runner safe I actually bumped him with my mask in my left hand!

I just turned around and looked at the guy and said, "What are you doing back here?".

He mumbled something about "coaching my runner". I told him stay to in his box and stay away from the plate, or he just might get called for interference.

Just thinking about some other "never been called" rules...

Have you ever called an out because members of the offensive team gathered around a base and confused the defense or made a play more difficult? I'm picturing members of the offense creating some sort of flying wedge formation around third base!

Can't say that I've ever had to call a runner out for getting a running start from behind a base on a caught fly ball, either.
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