need help on NCAA new rule for runner leaving early

[shipwreck]

Please help me get this through my thick skull. Under current NCAA rules, here is the situation. Bases loaded, an illegal pitch happens first, then the runner on first leaves early. Batter gets an in the park home run. The rule book says signal delayed dead ball, let play continue, get with your partners, figure out which happened first, give the opposing coach the option of the play or enforcement of the rule. Then enforce the second violation. When all the smoke clears, how many runs would score? Also, if there are two outs, wouldn't that change the run output? The illegal pitch happened first, so the OC would take the result of the play, 4 runs score. Then you would go to the DC and ask what they want to do. This is where I get confused on how to sort this out. Please help.
Dave

[topper]

It doesn't matter if the IP happened first. If there is more than one rules violation:

12.20.2
"Notes:
1. In determining the result of play, ignore the leaving early violation and apply the effects for any other rule violations in the order in which they occurred. That end result becomes the first option."

In your situation, the OC gets the option of the IP or the in the park HR. Whatever his/her decision is becomes the result of the play when giving the DC the option of the leave early or result of the play. Obviously, in your situation, the DC will take the leave early regardless of which option the OC chooses. The result would be no pitch, runner on first is out.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by shipwreck

Please help me get this through my thick skull. Under current NCAA rules, here is the situation. Bases loaded, an illegal pitch happens first, then the runner on first leaves early. Batter gets an in the park home run. The rule book says signal delayed dead ball, let play continue, get with your partners, figure out which happened first, give the opposing coach the option of the play or enforcement of the rule. Then enforce the second violation. When all the smoke clears, how many runs would score? Also, if there are two outs, wouldn't that change the run output? The illegal pitch happened first, so the OC would take the result of the play, 4 runs score. Then you would go to the DC and ask what they want to do. This is where I get confused on how to sort this out. Please help.
Dave

AFTER the offensive coach chose the result of the play (4 runs), the defensive coach would choose the penalty for leaving early.

NO PITCH
RUNNER OUT
OTHER RUNNERS RETURN TO TIME OF PITCH BASE

[shipwreck]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

AFTER the offensive coach chose the result of the play (4 runs), the defensive coach would choose the penalty for leaving early.

NO PITCH
RUNNER OUT
OTHER RUNNERS RETURN TO TIME OF PITCH BASE

So if you reverse what happened first. Runner leaves first early, then an illegal pitch. Go to DC he will take runner being declared out. Then go to OC on illegal pitch option. He will take in the park home run. Less than two outs, how many runs score? Is it every runs counts except the girl called out for leaving early? Two outs, how many runs score?
Dave

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by shipwreck

So if you reverse what happened first. Runner leaves first early, then an illegal pitch. Go to DC he will take runner being declared out. Then go to OC on illegal pitch option. He will take in the park home run. Less than two outs, how many runs score? Is it every runs counts except the girl called out for leaving early? Two outs, how many runs score?
Dave

Previously stated:

12.20.2
"Notes:
1. In determining the result of play, ignore the leaving early violation and apply the effects for any other rule violations in the order in which they occurred. That end result becomes the first option."

So, 1) ignore the leaving early. Then 2) apply the effect of other violations (illegal pitch); OC will still take the home run. With that result of the play, DC will still take the leaving early.

The only time the final option isn't the leaving early effect is when the pitcher doesn't throw a pitch, or intentionally alters the delivery in a way to create the leaving early violation. No matter what order any other violations occur in.

[IRISHMAFIA]

And what if the leaving early was the result of in IP?

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by shipwreck

So if you reverse what happened first. Runner leaves first early, then an illegal pitch. Go to DC he will take runner being declared out. Then go to OC on illegal pitch option. He will take in the park home run. Less than two outs, how many runs score? Is it every runs counts except the girl called out for leaving early? Two outs, how many runs score?
Dave

No, see Topper's answer and reference.
I'm not sure why, but leaving early is always the last option.
There is a multi-page guidance of scenarios which I went over at the beginning of the season.

[MD Longhorn]

Under this rule, as a pitcher, every once in a while with runners on, I'm going to not release the pitch on the first windmill and continue around for a 2nd one before pitching. Most runners will run early - I get an out. Later, after they've seen this several times, my runners are glued to their bags when I'm pitching normally. Win-win. Dumb ruling.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

And what if the leaving early was the result of in IP?

I've brought up that very situation and have had the rule repeated back to me which leads me to believe the answer is: "Too bad, so sad".

I guess a good pitcher would be working on a windmill with a hesitation....

On another note.... The timing of an appeal could be very interesting...

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

I've brought up that very situation and have had the rule repeated back to me which leads me to believe the answer is: "Too bad, so sad".

I guess a good pitcher would be working on a windmill with a hesitation....

On another note.... The timing of an appeal could be very interesting...

Hugo, you weren't told correctly. Cut and pasted from Dee Abrahamson's rules interpretations on NCAA Home Plate Arbiter:

3-5-12 12.20 10.8 15.2.13
Runner Leaves Early, Illegal Pitch, Pitcher Holds Ball

Play: Pitcher makes three revolutions with her arm before letting go of the pitch. After the first revolution, the base runner on first base leaves early. OR Pitcher correctly and legally follows the pitching rules except does not release the pitch causing the base runner to erroneously leave the base in anticipation of the release.

Ruling: This is an exception to the typical effect for the double violation of leaving early and an illegal pitch. If the pitcher fails to deliver the pitch in the legal manner causing the base runner to leave early in anticipation of the proper release of the pitch, the defensive head coach is not rewarded with having the option of selecting the outcome. Instead, enforce only the penalty for illegal pitch and warn both the pitcher and head coach that a repeat of this unsporting behavior will result in their ejection.

15.2.13 says “the umpire shall not impose an effect on a team for any infraction of a rule when imposing the effect would be an advantage to the offending team.” In this case, intentionally violating the pitching rule to cause an opponent to violate the base running rule is unsporting and should not be rewarded by allowing the defensive coach to have the runner called out for leaving early.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Hugo, you weren't told correctly. Cut and pasted from Dee Abrahamson's rules interpretations on NCAA Home Plate Arbiter:

3-5-12 12.20 10.8 15.2.13
Runner Leaves Early, Illegal Pitch, Pitcher Holds Ball

Play: Pitcher makes three revolutions with her arm before letting go of the pitch. After the first revolution, the base runner on first base leaves early. OR Pitcher correctly and legally follows the pitching rules except does not release the pitch causing the base runner to erroneously leave the base in anticipation of the release.

Ruling: This is an exception to the typical effect for the double violation of leaving early and an illegal pitch. If the pitcher fails to deliver the pitch in the legal manner causing the base runner to leave early in anticipation of the proper release of the pitch, the defensive head coach is not rewarded with having the option of selecting the outcome. Instead, enforce only the penalty for illegal pitch and warn both the pitcher and head coach that a repeat of this unsporting behavior will result in their ejection.

15.2.13 says “the umpire shall not impose an effect on a team for any infraction of a rule when imposing the effect would be an advantage to the offending team.” In this case, intentionally violating the pitching rule to cause an opponent to violate the base running rule is unsporting and should not be rewarded by allowing the defensive coach to have the runner called out for leaving early.

Glad you pointed that out - It certainly makes the most sense.

I'll have to go back and read a little more carefully.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Hugo, you weren't told correctly. Cut and pasted from Dee Abrahamson's rules interpretations on NCAA Home Plate Arbiter:

It's probably buried on page 7 of that 9 page "brief" on how to handle these option plays....

I don't know about you guys, but my head was ready to explode after about a page and half of that thing.....

[shipwreck]

I believe they need to reword page 6 of the NCAA rule book, points of emphasis. seems misleading to me.

Dave

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by shipwreck

I believe they need to reword page 6 of the NCAA rule book, points of emphasis. seems misleading to me.

Dave

And just think how much easier it would be if they just left the rule like it has been for the past 75+ years.

[shipwreck]

Maybe they need to justify needing all those people on the rules committee.