USSSA Tag Out Scenario

[OKExplorist]

Ball was in the glove, tag applied, ball was in the glove when she stood up. From my position (10-12 ft from the bag looking straight down toward third) I had no reason to suspect the ball was ever on the ground.

HC was 3rd base coach but 1st base coach requested the help. HC seemed calmed when he approached me and asked for my explanation. I was calm through the whole thing so I had no problem telling him what I saw. That is until he decided he'd rather yell than listen to me.

When I told him he'd spend the evening in the parking lot, he shut up and went to the dugout to have his conversation with another coach/parent. Probably should've tossed just for the fact he was arguing at the half-inning.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by OKExplorist

Probably should've tossed just for the fact he was arguing at the half-inning.

Not necessarily. They have a right to ask question, and to express their disagreement. It is simply a matter of how they go about doing that.

Now, back to your original post. If, in your judgment, the fielder had possession/control of the ball when she applied the tag, then you would have an out. Subsequent action has little bearing on that aspect of the play.

[CecilOne]

A) "F6 makes the catch at knee height on the first base side of second and applies the tag to the back (underside) of R1's left leg "

is an out.

B) Your partner saying the was on the ground as F6 got up cast doubt on her control and so did you end up guessing an out?

IOW, certainty of A is ok, but not if B is true.

[bigsig]

The part that bothers me is this: You did go to your partner to ask what they saw. Your partner said the ball was on the ground. 4 questions;
1. What reason do you have to not accept your partners judgement?
2. Did you put your partner in a position where he had to support you when he thought you were wrong?
3. Do you think there is an ethics question here?
4. Why would your partner ever want to work with you again?

[OKExplorist]

Good questions Sig.

1) My partner's statement. He was blocked on the play by the catcher. He asked if I had a catch and tag. I did. He had nothing else to offer me.

2) No. I explained the basis for my call and ask for what he saw. We discussed the possibilities and had no basis for changing the call.

3) I guess I don't see any ethical problem here. You'll have to enlighten me.

4) We worked four games together in a 10-game rotation on Saturday and had one questionable call. I don't make calls based upon my ego. I hustle. I get position. I communicate. And I have a BRILLIANT personality.

-I really am interested in what ethical violation I have here.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bigsig

The part that bothers me is this: You did go to your partner to ask what they saw. Your partner said the ball was on the ground. 4 questions;
1. What reason do you have to not accept your partners judgement?
2. Did you put your partner in a position where he had to support you when he thought you were wrong?
3. Do you think there is an ethics question here?
4. Why would your partner ever want to work with you again?

I think you're jumping VERY far to a conclusion here that is not warranted. Partner gave him what he had. It didn't sound definitive to me, and it obviously wasn't to OP. Partner saw ball on the ground, but not when or how it got there. Partner didn't have to support squat - he gave his input, but it's BU's call to live with and die with. If partner was definitive, it would be different, but I assume BU's decision would have been as well.

[OKExplorist]

One thing would've fixed it....."ball came out on the tag" from my PU. He couldn't say that. I had what I had.

My original question was...."what would you have?"

[Andy]

Originally Posted by OKExplorist

One thing would've fixed it....."ball came out on the tag" from my PU. He couldn't say that. I had what I had.

My original question was...."what would you have?"

Maybe a better question would have been: "Did you see the ball on the ground?"

For him to answer the question you asked from behind the plate and being partially blocked by the catcher is difficult. He probably gave you an honest "I don't know, I didn't see the whole play" response.

Whether the ball was on the ground or not is a yes or no question that he could answer. You then take that information and make a decision to stick with your call or not.

[bigsig]

Based on your description I would agree with your call 100%. I asked the questions because I thought in your original post stated that your partner, when asked, said they saw the ball on the ground but was blocked on the tag. If the ball was on the ground how could they have maintained control?

I appreciate your civil response.

I few years ago I had a base ump come to me on a pulled foot at 1B after he called the runner out. I told him it was definitely a pulled foot. He turned around and yelled to the coach "my partner agrees, the runner is out!"
I told him after the game that I would never work with him again and filled a complaint with the ethics committee of our umpire association. (He got off with a warning)

[OKExplorist]

Originally Posted by Andy

Maybe a better question would have been: "Did you see the ball on the ground?"

Andy...I don't think my post was clear. I was asking the forum "what they have." I asked my PU what he saw. I like to leave the questions open-ended so it doesn't limit their response to me.

[OKExplorist]

Cecil - It's possible she was safe. I definitely waited long enough to see the ball on the ground if it was going to happen. There was little to no unusual movement by F6 in an effort to put the ball back into the glove. Seeing any ball on the ground could've been blocked by R1's leg. That's why I was more than willing to get more information.

I'm confident the ball was in the glove and the tag was made. My partner could not definitively tell me how or when the ball left the glove of F6. Because I never saw the ball on the ground and he couldn't add anything for me to change my mind, we kept it as called.

Could it have been wrong? Absolutely! Did I call it as I saw it and within my judgement? Without a doubt! Would I have changed the call if my partner had more information? Of course. I'm more interested in getting it right than getting yelled at.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by OKExplorist

.

I'm confident the ball was in the glove and the tag was made.

That is all that you need then for the out call. Nothing more.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by OKExplorist

I'm confident the ball was in the glove and the tag was made.

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

That is all that you need then for the out call. Nothing more.

But we're dealing with the wild and wacky world of USSSA softball, where the definition of "a tag" is just a little bit different...

TAG OUT. A tagout is the putting out of a runner (including the batter runner),
who is not touching a base, by touching the runner with a live ball or
with the glove or hand when the live ball is securely held there in by a fielder.
The ball is not considered as having been held securely if it is juggled or
dropped after the touching unless the runner deliberately knocks the ball from
the hand of the fielder.

Hmmmm? Was the ball "juggled or dropped after the touching"? Their rule seems to say that the runner would be safe- at least, if the umpires had actually seen the ball on the ground immediately following the tag.

I'm not trying to beat you up here. Sometimes, you get blocked out or aren't able to see everything you'd like to see. You made the call you thought was correct based on what you did see, solicited help from your partner when asked, didn't really receive anything overwhelming enough to make you change your mind, then ruled as best you could.

Been there, done that! I'm not sure what you could have done differently.

As for the coaches, I might give them just a little more leash, just because of the odd circumstances surrounding the play and the possibility that maybe you did blow this one. But once I've explained it and we're back to playing ball, I'm not going to listen to them rehash things over and over.

I think you were probably right to let them know enough was enough. But I didn't really like to frame my warnings with an "or else" qualifier (or else you're in the parking lot"). I think that can make the umpire look like the aggressor and serves to put the coach on the defensive. Just let them know you're done discussing it then, if they keep it up, do what you got to do.

[OKExplorist]

Originally Posted by BretMan

I'm not trying to beat you up here. Sometimes, you get blocked out or aren't able to see everything you'd like to see.

That's one of my problems with this play and call. I NEVER saw the ball on the ground and I watched F6 until the ball went to the F1. I was even willing to overturn my call if the PU could provide information on when the ball came out. He couldn't do that.

Now that I'm three days post-game, I don't believe this can be called a blown call because I called it exactly as I saw it. I see it more as an unfortunate situation.

My learning point from this, I think, will be to hustle just a little bit more to the ball side of the play to ensure the ball is still in the glove.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by OKExplorist

That's one of my problems with this play and call. I NEVER saw the ball on the ground and I watched F6 until the ball went to the F1. I was even willing to overturn my call if the PU could provide information on when the ball came out. He couldn't do that.

Now that I'm three days post-game, I don't believe this can be called a blown call because I called it exactly as I saw it. I see it more as an unfortunate situation.

My learning point from this, I think, will be to hustle just a little bit more to the ball side of the play to ensure the ball is still in the glove.

I must have mis-understood this:

My partner said he did see the ball on the ground as F6 was getting up but was blocked on the tag by the catcher.

I read that to mean that he saw something you didn't and that he saw the ball on the ground sometime before F6 collected herself and you saw her come up with the ball.