What do you have?

[rwest]

Who would have thought that a simple post on an illegal re-entry would turn into a thread with 62 replies?

OK, so the general consensus is don't allow it. Mike even furnished some information from ASA to not knowingly allow a illegal substitution. Good enough for me. Now, do you actually prevent the batter from batting? What if the coach, after he has been told this is illegal, agrees not to officially make the substitution, but still tells his player to go bat. Are you going to remain quiet at this time and allow the girl to bat, knowing that she can't legally? You didn't allow the substitution. Your line up card reflects the previous line up. You made no announcement to the score keeper or to the other team. I think at this point we have done all we can and now it is on the other coach to catch the illegal re-entry.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by rwest

Who would have thought that a simple post on an illegal re-entry would turn into a thread with 62 replies?

OK, so the general consensus is don't allow it. Mike even furnished some information from ASA to not knowingly allow a illegal substitution. Good enough for me. Now, do you actually prevent the batter from batting? What if the coach, after he has been told this is illegal, agrees not to officially make the substitution, but still tells his player to go bat. Are you going to remain quiet at this time and allow the girl to bat, knowing that she can't legally? You didn't allow the substitution. Your line up card reflects the previous line up. You made no announcement to the score keeper or to the other team. I think at this point we have done all we can and now it is on the other coach to catch the illegal re-entry.

Hey, look I'm quoting myself! Sorry, I digress!

Alright, so lets say you don't allow the illegal re-entry in the 4th inning. Suppose the coach attempts this again in the 6th, but this times does not inform you of the substitution. So now we have an unreported substitute. If the opposing coach comes out to appeal, what do you do? Does the coach have to use the correct verbiage? What if the coach says I want to appeal an unreported sub? Do we rule on that alone and not rule on the illegal re-entry until the coach appeals that infraction? Or do we go straight to the more egregious infraction of an illegal re-entry?

This appears to me to be similar to a coach appealing a player missing a base. The coach can't simple say, "Blue, the runner missed a base". They have to say what base they missed. They can't guess. The ASA manual specifically says not to allow guessing games.

[Andy]

There is another solution to this issue....

Coach: I want to re-enter Baker
Ump: Sorry, coach, you can't do that. Baker has already used his re-entry.
Coach: I want to do it anyway.
Ump: Coach, I am not going to allow you to do that.
Coach: Re-enter Baker...Baker, get up to bat!

Ump: Coach, you're ejected. (to new head coach): did you have any legal lineup changes for me?

(Repeat as necessary)

It is considered unsportsmanlike conduct to disregard an umpires directives.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Andy

There is another solution to this issue....

Coach: I want to re-enter Baker
Ump: Sorry, coach, you can't do that. Baker has already used his re-entry.
Coach: I want to do it anyway.
Ump: Coach, I am not going to allow you to do that.
Coach: Re-enter Baker...Baker, get up to bat!

Ump: Coach, you're ejected. (to new head coach): did you have any legal lineup changes for me?

(Repeat as necessary)

It is considered unsportsmanlike conduct to disregard an umpires directives.

But this doesn't address my last post. They are not substituting. They are just putting her in without notifying you. Now you have an unreported sub.
In ASA the umpire does not have the authority to rule on this until an appeal is made by the defense.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by rwest

But this doesn't address my last post. They are not substituting. They are just putting her in without notifying you. Now you have an unreported sub.
In ASA the umpire does not have the authority to run on this until an appeal is made by the defense.

I disagree. This is a coach violating the rules of the game after you already informed the coach the attempted re-entry was illegal. Telling a coach their actions were illegal is the same as a "warning" of the same. If you discover that player attempting to return to the game, I will probably walk over to the coach and offer a reminder of the previous conversation and the opportunity to put a legal substitute in place or play shorthanded, if that is available. If the player is already in the game........forfeiting the game is not beyond the realm of appropriate action.

And for those who want to bring in the "protest" into play, I'm not acting on 4.6.F.4, but 5.4.F. We are not talking about a "gotcha" type of rule, but a coach who, after being told his actions would be a rule violation willfully and with full intent repeated that action.

Don't want to, but this is why I stopped him/her the first time. This isn't an "oh, I forget" or "sorry, I didn't know" situation, this guy/gal blatantly cheated not only the opponent, but his own team.

[robbie]

Originally Posted by rwest

But this doesn't address my last post. They are not substituting. They are just putting her in without notifying you. Now you have an unreported sub.
In ASA the umpire does not have the authority to rule on this until an appeal is made by the defense.

I know its well documented that the original post was regarding ASA......

However, as to the above, in NSA, you do NOT need an appeal. ANYONE may point out the infraction. Including the guilty team. An unreported sub is an "illegal substitution with the penalty - IMMEDIATE EJECTION FROM THE GAME WHENEVER THE INFRACTION IS DISCIVERED."
Caps are in the book.

[Bill S]

Please look in the book before you make statements.
Page 102 is on line at the NSA web sight and it does need to be appealed.
May not be ASA, USSSA, GSA, NCAA, Federation, etc. but right or wrong, that is what it is in NSA.

Respectfully,

Bill, only Bill

[robbie]

Originally Posted by Bill S

Please look in the book before you make statements.
Page 102 is on line at the NSA web sight and it does need to be appealed.
May not be ASA, USSSA, GSA, NCAA, Federation, etc. but right or wrong, that is what it is in NSA.

Respectfully,

Bill, only Bill

Thanks for the post, but my post and quotation stands:

Page 101
Rule 4
Sec. 5
"The manager or team representative shall notify the plate umpire at the time a substitute enters the game. Failure to notify the umpire of a substitution would create an illegal substitution with the penalty - IMMEDIATE EJECTION FROM THE GAME WHENEVER THE INFRACTION IS DISCOVERED."

I was posting in reference to unreported sub as is quoted in my post:
Originally Posted by rwest
But this doesn't address my last post. They are not substituting. They are just putting her in without notifying you. Now you have an unreported sub.
In ASA the umpire does not have the authority to rule on this until an appeal is made by the defense.

The rule you site on page 102 is Rule 4 Sec. 7 which governs "illegal player."

By the way:
In youth play, with an unreported sub, you only have an ejection of the coach. No further "on field" remedy is called for, ie: there is no player ejection, no outs, etc.

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Originally Posted by Andy

There is another solution to this issue....

Coach: I want to re-enter Baker
Ump: Sorry, coach, you can't do that. Baker has already used his re-entry.
Coach: I want to do it anyway.
Ump: Coach, I am not going to allow you to do that.
Coach: Re-enter Baker...Baker, get up to bat!

Ump: Coach, you're ejected. (to new head coach): did you have any legal lineup changes for me?

(Repeat as necessary)

It is considered unsportsmanlike conduct to disregard an umpires directives.

^^^^As stated by others.....this is how I would also handle the situation. Along with the (Repeat as necessary) step.

Joel