What do you have? - Page 3

MD Longhorn · #31 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 13, 2012, 05:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpire12

later in the game this opposing coach reenters a substitute for a second time which inexplicably gets by you. once discovered and penalties are to be meted out, this coach wants to know why you wouldnt allow his opponents change but you allowed his and accuses you of favoritism.

If this illegal substitution was reported, and I screwed it up by allowing it, then heck yes, I deserve the CF and the reprimand that will likely be coming. If it was not reported and THAT is the reason it "slipped by me", then how could the umpire be faulted when it was the failure to report that caused the CF.

IRISHMAFIA · #32 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 13, 2012, 05:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpire12

no, it isnt

Let me make this real simple for you as it pertains to ASA. And this is the "official" line, has been covered at numerous national, regional and state-level clinics from more than qualified clinicians:

You never take a change that you know is not legal.

You can do with it what you please, but there is no denying this statement is absolutely accurate. It is part of Game Management and Line-up Card Maintenance.

If you like, I will ask the NFHS rep for my area tonight and I'm willing to bet I will get the same answer.

NSABill · #33 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 13, 2012, 05:54pm

I am probably one of the elder (chronologically) umps lurking.

At the higher levels, I have actually had coaches purposely try or had to do illegal moves with their lineup. I have had them tell me that they know what they are doing is illegal but they are doing it anyway. Keep your mouth shut. It is the job of the other coach to catch them. You can not tell them they may not do it. If they do not do this, they may have to forfeit.
I would just ask them rather strongly: "Are you sure you want to do this coach?" Then go about my business.

I guess it may be dependent at what level you are talking though.
I am all for preventive umpiring but you can only intercede so much.
You can not coach for them.

If you can sort of steer away from a cluster, it would probably be wise but sometimes you have to keep your place.
Remember the old saying in ball is: :"It ain't cheating if you don't get caught."

I guess this is a "sticky wicket."

MD Longhorn · #34 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 13, 2012, 06:05pm

Quote:

What do you have and how do you handle it? ASA rules apply.

Hmmm... Love those that answer a questions completely wrong, defend their inane position until their are beaten to submission, then retreat to the "they don't do it that way in the ABCDE league". Don't come on here, answer an ASA question with blatant stupidity and then claim the reason for your answer is that other groups don't agree with ASA.

(And incidentally, all but NCAA and professional that I've come across subscribe to the "prevent a disqualification" mentality at the very least... and in many cases, simply "prevent the foul/rule breakage/whatever if you can" mentality.)

NSABill · #35 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 13, 2012, 06:40pm

Did not realize this was ASA specific.
I must admit I was not giving an ASA sanctioned answer.
As for ASA, I am no expert.

Respectfully,

Bill

NCASAUmp · #36 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 13, 2012, 07:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpire12

lol..thats funny...now the coach isnt just inept, he cheating. lets look at this.....a coach comes to you and says he wants to bat his flex in another position besides the dp. you say coach, thats illegal, im not going to allow it. this conversation is overheard by the opposing teams head coach and some fans. later in the game this opposing coach reenters a substitute for a second time which inexplicably gets by you. once discovered and penalties are to be meted out, this coach wants to know why you wouldnt allow his opponents change but you allowed his and accuses you of favoritism. a brouhaha ensues. when the uic comes to see what the fuss is about ,the fans in the area concur what the coach says . this whole scene would wreek of partiality. what now? talk about a fustercluck. i would prefer to keep it equitable by not coaching. hinting perhaps but not outright coaching

Two things.

1 - What you describe is an incompetent umpire, as they are unable to maintain a proper line-up card. No forum in the world can correct this, and there's no point in discussing that any further.

2 - What you're saying is that the second coach has re-entered a player a second time, KNOWING that I just had a conversation with the opposing team manager whereby I told him/her s/he can't do this. In that case, s/he willfully violated the rules, and s/he deserves everything the rule book says s/he does. I'd have zero sympathy for a coach who confesses this tidbit of information to me by making such an accusation.

I'd certainly deserve the chewing by my UIC afterward, but it still falls on the coach to make sure they play fairly and legally. This is why ASA gives teams a copy of the rule book upon registration, and the rule is written so simply and plainly that there should be no confusion regarding the re-entry of a player.

NCASAUmp · #37 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 13, 2012, 08:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpire12

im not sure that you can call an umpirie that has a brain fart incompetent. im sure most of us have made mistakes. but youre right, we should drop it. i see some of the regulars here resort to name calling and beration to get their point across. i thank you for a spirited debate and for some insight that i will definately take into consideration

Brain farts happen, sure... And maybe "incompetent" is a bit strong a word. But we should make every effort to maintain a proper line-up card, even if that means delaying the game a moment to make sure everything is legit. If an umpire rushes through this process, that's a bad sign for that umpire.

Take the time to make sure you've got a properly-maintained line-up card. The game can wait.

IRISHMAFIA · #38 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 13, 2012, 10:35pm

So I attend the state NFHS clinic tonight, open the NFHS 2012 Softball Preseason Guide and what do I see? An article titled "Guidelines for a Well-Kept Lineup Card with paragraph 8 reading, "Do not accept or allow changes that are illegal. If you are not sure, consult with your crew members before allowing the change. It's acceptable to explain what is legal to a questioning coach."

NCASAUmp · #39 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 13, 2012, 11:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

So I attend the state NFHS clinic tonight, open the NFHS 2012 Softball Preseason Guide and what do I see? An article titled "Guidelines for a Well-Kept Lineup Card with paragraph 8 reading, "Do not accept or allow changes that are illegal. If you are not sure, consult with your crew members before allowing the change. It's acceptable to explain what is legal to a questioning coach."

*gasp* Say it ain't so!

IRISHMAFIA · #40 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 13, 2012, 11:09pm

And then from Section 6, Line-up Card Management of the ISF Umpire Manual: "Do not accept changes that you know are illegal."

AtlUmpSteve · #41 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 14, 2012, 01:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

(And incidentally, all but NCAA and professional that I've come across subscribe to the "prevent a disqualification" mentality at the very least... and in many cases, simply "prevent the foul/rule breakage/whatever if you can" mentality.)

You can subtract NCAA from that list, too. The SUP, as well as the CCA manual, has stated the same philosophy as others, do not knowingly allow an illegal change. That isn't coaching, it is preventative officiating. By the vast majority opinion.

Sounds to me like NSA stands alone, if that is even their actual philosphy.

MD Longhorn · #42 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 14, 2012, 11:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpire12

i agree...i made a mistake by not realizing the question was ASA specific...however, calling someone blatantly stupid is uncalled for. i may not always be right but i would not lower myself to your level by casting aspersions. that was downright rude

Had I called you that, I'd apologize. I did not.

Even smart people say things that are blatantly stupid sometimes - doesn't make them blatantly stupid any more than their being smart makes their stupid comment something other than stupid.

NCASAUmp · #43 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 14, 2012, 12:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Even smart people say things that are blatantly stupid sometimes - doesn't make them blatantly stupid any more than their being smart makes their stupid comment something other than stupid.

I used to do tech support at a major university. I can totally vouch for this.

rwest · #44 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 15, 2012, 07:54am

Who would have thought that a simple post on an illegal re-entry would turn into a thread with 62 replies?

OK, so the general consensus is don't allow it. Mike even furnished some information from ASA to not knowingly allow a illegal substitution. Good enough for me. Now, do you actually prevent the batter from batting? What if the coach, after he has been told this is illegal, agrees not to officially make the substitution, but still tells his player to go bat. Are you going to remain quiet at this time and allow the girl to bat, knowing that she can't legally? You didn't allow the substitution. Your line up card reflects the previous line up. You made no announcement to the score keeper or to the other team. I think at this point we have done all we can and now it is on the other coach to catch the illegal re-entry.

rwest · #45 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 15, 2012, 09:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwest

Who would have thought that a simple post on an illegal re-entry would turn into a thread with 62 replies?

OK, so the general consensus is don't allow it. Mike even furnished some information from ASA to not knowingly allow a illegal substitution. Good enough for me. Now, do you actually prevent the batter from batting? What if the coach, after he has been told this is illegal, agrees not to officially make the substitution, but still tells his player to go bat. Are you going to remain quiet at this time and allow the girl to bat, knowing that she can't legally? You didn't allow the substitution. Your line up card reflects the previous line up. You made no announcement to the score keeper or to the other team. I think at this point we have done all we can and now it is on the other coach to catch the illegal re-entry.

Hey, look I'm quoting myself! Sorry, I digress!

Alright, so lets say you don't allow the illegal re-entry in the 4th inning. Suppose the coach attempts this again in the 6th, but this times does not inform you of the substitution. So now we have an unreported substitute. If the opposing coach comes out to appeal, what do you do? Does the coach have to use the correct verbiage? What if the coach says I want to appeal an unreported sub? Do we rule on that alone and not rule on the illegal re-entry until the coach appeals that infraction? Or do we go straight to the more egregious infraction of an illegal re-entry?

This appears to me to be similar to a coach appealing a player missing a base. The coach can't simple say, "Blue, the runner missed a base". They have to say what base they missed. They can't guess. The ASA manual specifically says not to allow guessing games.