What do you have?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

There is a blurred line between "preventative officiating" and "coaching."

Yes.

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Let the screw up and maybe a few more of them will be humbled a bit.

No.

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

They think we screw up all the time.

Generalization from a specific.

[CecilOne]

If a coach reports a change which is not allowed, it is my responsibility to reject it. That is part of why changes are reported.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by umpire12

no, it isnt

Actually, yes, it is.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by umpire12

actually, no it isnt. there are provisions that address coaching errors. i may try to prod them in the right direction but im not there to give favor to either coach

There are rules regarding coaching errors, but if a coach tries to give me an illegal substitute, I'm going to head it off at the pass before it becomes a big fustercluck.

That's something you can and should prevent.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by umpire12

i agree there is something you 'can' do. i dont agree there is something 'should' do. it certainly cant become a fustercluck if you know how how address the error. its not rocket science

So then what would you do if given an illegal substitution?

If you're just going to sit back and watch the fustercluck begin, then you're just there to collect a paycheck.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by umpire12

that's your perspective and assumption. i would certainly ask if he's sure he wants to do that, however im not there babysit or coddle the coaches. they are supposed to know the rules as i am. again, its only a fustercluck if your'e one those ' scratch you head with a pencil and mutter oh geez now what?' kind of umpires. i sir. am not. im prepared to handle any situation that arrises

So you're saying that you wouldn't inform the coach that what s/he's asking to do is not legal?

And yes, that is my perspective and my not-so-humble opinion. I won't go out of my way to save a coach from him/herself, but I also won't let this happen. That's a fustercluck that never ends well.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by umpire12

i think you just quoted me as to what i'm saying. if you know it never ends well, it must have happened to you. how did you let that happen? also, why didnt you know how to handle it when it did happen?

Actually, it hasn't happened to me, but thanks for asking.

Back to my question to you.

Yes or no: you're saying that you wouldn't inform the coach that what s/he is asking to do is illegal? If what you're saying is "no," then how do you handle it?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by umpire12

well, if it never happened to you how do you know it never ends well?...again, if you would read my responses before reposting my quote you would see how i would handle it. i explained that to you already

I have read everything you typed. You haven't said anything at all, and you're dodging the question.

Yes or no: would you inform the coach that what s/he is asking to do is illegal?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by umpire12

nor have you...how do you know it never ends well? it can only not end well if you dont know how to deal with it

Because I don't watch just my games.

Your turn to answer my question with a yes or no answer.

Originally Posted by umpire12

let me help you...this is my partial quote that you reposted

" i would certainly ask if he's sure he wants to do that"

This isn't answering the question, nor is it informing the coach that s/he's about to do something illegal. You're only confirming that they're sure that they want to enter that particular player into the game, nothing more. They MIGHT get the hint, but in all likelihood, they won't.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by umpire12

i will respond to a question but i will not offer coaching advice

So in other words, your answer is "no." Just come out and say it. "No."

Don't know why you have to be so vague about it.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by umpire12

geez,,how much clearer can i make it to you?..no, i would not offer that information

That's how you make it clear. You kept dodging the question.

I agree that we should not be in the business of coaching. We're not coaches, we're umpires.

However, I completely disagree that we should not inform the coach that what they are about to do is illegal. This falls into the category of "preventative umpiring," and there is absolutely nothing wrong with preventing a coach from willfully violating the rules of the game. This isn't coaching, this is umpiring.

"Baker has already re-entered the game once before, coach. You can't re-enter him a second time. Please give me someone else, coach."

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by umpire12

i certainly respect your perspective and the way you would handle this situation. i just have a different opinion on what constitutes coaching and what doesnt. thats all there is to it. i just feel it gives favor to one over the other and takes away equity.

And I think that by allowing this to take place, you are knowingly permitting said inequity.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by umpire12

i certainly respect your perspective and the way you would handle this situation. i just have a different opinion on what constitutes coaching and what doesnt. thats all there is to it. i just feel it gives favor to one over the other and takes away equity.

What he did was knowingly let one team intentionally break the rules in the hope that the other team would catch the cheating, call them on it so he can dump players and probably a coach.

So, when the first coach is breaking the rules and the second coach is either too distracted or rule knowledge lacking, he will allow the first team to intentionally cheat.

None of that should have to happen.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

What he did was knowingly let one team intentionally break the rules in the hope that the other team would catch the cheating, call them on it so he can dump players and probably a coach.

So, when the first coach is breaking the rules and the second coach is either too distracted or rule knowledge lacking, he will allow the first team to intentionally cheat.

None of that should have to happen.

Which, to me, is taking the path of least resistance. Rather than confront the coach who is (knowingly or unknowingly) attempting to cheat, they're hoping the opposing team won't catch the illegal re-entry.

Head it off at the pass, keep the integrity of the game. That's our job.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by umpire12

i certainly respect your perspective and the way you would handle this situation. i just have a different opinion on what constitutes coaching and what doesnt. thats all there is to it. i just feel it gives favor to one over the other and takes away equity.

Have you perhaps run this one up the flagpole? I suspect your association / state / whatever doesn't want you failing to handle this easily defusable situation.

I don't believe this pertains to college, but at high school and above, across multiple sports and levels, the general protocol is to prevent a disqualifiable offense if possible - and the OP certainly not only applies, but is often the example used to illustrate this point.