Runs Scored

[MrRabbit]

NFHS / ASA Rules...

R1 on third, R2 on second, R3 on first and 1 out.
B5 hits safely to right field.
R1 scores,
R2 misses third base and scores.
R3 is thrown out at third.
Playing action ends defensive team makes a dead ball appeal R2 missed third on her way home.
Umpire declares R2 out.
How many runs score?

[NCASAUmp]

R1 scores. The out on R2 is not a force out, as a trailing runner (R3) had already been declared out.

You can never, ever have a force out on a runner when a runner who's trailing them has already been declared out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

ASA RS#1.J Last Sentence......

"On an appeal play, the force out is determined by when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occurred."

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

ASA RS#1.J Last Sentence......

"On an appeal play, the force out is determined by when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occurred."

Speakin ASA.

[MrRabbit]

Then the call is the same for ASA and NFHS?

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by MrRabbit

Then the call is the same for ASA and NFHS?

I just had an extremely long conversation with a well respected baseball and softball rules interpreter and author.

Here's what I confirmed/learned.

Check your 2004 ASA rule book, if you still have one laying around. ASA changed their interpretation of the definition of a force as it pertained to an appeal play. Another person already quoted it as follows: "On an appeal play, the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occurred."

Prior to 2004, that was not ASA's rule/interpretation.

Only ASA (among all softball codes) has adopted this definition/interpretation.

Consequently, in ASA, the run does score.

However, in all other codes, including NFHS and NCAA, the run does NOT score. They keep the "retroactive" force play.

I'm sure this will create some controversy, but that's the interpretation. MLB is currently discussing possibly changing their interpretation as well.

There are some case plays that illustrate why ASA has gone with this interpretation, but I'll leave them out for now.

Fire away

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

R1 scores. The out on R2 is not a force out, as a trailing runner (R3) had already been declared out.

You can never, ever have a force out on a runner when a runner who's trailing them has already been declared out.

Except for helmet removal.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Except for helmet removal.

Good catch there. Forgot about that one.

[SamG]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

R1 scores. The out on R2 is not a force out, as a trailing runner (R3) had already been declared out.

You can never, ever have a force out on a runner when a runner who's trailing them has already been declared out.

But even if R2 IS a force out, the run (R1) would still score, wouldn't it? Let's change the situation a little...
Bases loaded, one out.
Ground ball to F6... she throws to F5 for the force on R2.
F5 sees R3 making it to 2nd, so tries to make a play on B/R at first.
B/R is safe and F3 throws back to F5 who tags R3 trying to steal.

There's still three outs and R1 still scores. So why does the timing matter (in the OP)? What am I missing?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by SamG

But even if R2 IS a force out, the run (R1) would still score, wouldn't it?

Nope.

Originally Posted by SamG

Let's change the situation a little...
Bases loaded, one out.
Ground ball to F6... she throws to F5 for the force on R2.
F5 sees R3 making it to 2nd, so tries to make a play on B/R at first.
B/R is safe and F3 throws back to F5 who tags R3 trying to steal.

There's still three outs and R1 still scores. So why does the timing matter (in the OP)? What am I missing?

What difference does it make the order in which the outs were attempted?

ASA 5-5-B: No run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of:
1. A batter-runner being called out prior to reaching first base or any other runner forced out due to the batter becoming a batter-runner.

They can throw the ball around all they want, but if the third out is a force out, no runs may score.

Make sense?

[SamG]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Nope.



What difference does it make the order in which the outs were attempted?


They can throw the ball around all they want, but if the third out is a force out, no runs may score.

Make sense?

I understand that. I guess what I missed was how R2 missing the bag would be considered a 'force out', which from the PP, I understand it's not. It's only if it WAS a force out (and happened AFTER R3 was out, which is impossible) would the run not count.

OK, that sentence doesn't make total sense, but I think I understand.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by SamG

But even if R2 IS a force out, the run (R1) would still score, wouldn't it? Let's change the situation a little...
Bases loaded, one out.
Ground ball to F6... she throws to F5 for the force on R2.
F5 sees R3 making it to 2nd, so tries to make a play on B/R at first.
B/R is safe and F3 throws back to F5 who tags R3 trying to steal.

There's still three outs and R1 still scores. So why does the timing matter (in the OP)? What am I missing?

Yes, 3 outs, but in this scenario, the third out is not force or BR (tags R3 trying to steal); so the run scoring or not is determined by the timing of R1 getting to HP before the out or not.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MrRabbit

NFHS / ASA Rules...

R1 on third, R2 on second, R3 on first and 1 out.
B5 hits safely to right field.
R1 scores,
R2 misses third base and scores.
R3 is thrown out at third.
Playing action ends defensive team makes a dead ball appeal R2 missed third on her way home.
Umpire declares R2 out.
How many runs score?

So after all the roundabouts, R1 (lead runner on 3rd base would score in ASA; and no runs would score elsewhere (NCAA, NFHS, USSSA, PONY).

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

So after all the roundabouts, R1 (lead runner on 3rd base would score in ASA; and no runs would score elsewhere (NCAA, NFHS, USSSA, PONY).

ASA - yes.

Looks like NCAA is no run. Don't know about others, but let me add another little tidbit.

When it comes down to multiple decisions on a single play, are we not usually told to address each portion(s) of the play in the order in which each occurred? Question would be, I guess, would you address the missed base or the appeal first.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

ASA - yes.

Looks like NCAA is no run. Don't know about others, but let me add another little tidbit.

When it comes down to multiple decisions on a single play, are we not usually told to address each portion(s) of the play in the order in which each occurred? Question would be, I guess, would you address the missed base or the appeal first.

I don't think that on appeal, it's unreasonable to address the status of the runner at the time the base was missed. That makes the most intuitive sense to me.
However if the rule states otherwise, thats what I enforce....

One of the reasons for getting the big bucks is to know how the Romans want it called.