Make this call - and support it!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Skahtboi
Mike:

I agree in principle with much of what you said. However, the problem is all too often what you stated in your response to WMB, namely "lazy coaching." (As was also stated by Sam C in his eloquently made "rant.") If all coaches had to attend clinics on how to teach the fundamentals of the game, then our jobs would be so much easier. All too often, though, I see fielders who are coached to stay on the bag in anticipation of a possible play, when in reality all it does is place them that much closer to an obstruction call. I see fielders who are taught to block the bag from the runner, often by the same coaches who gripe the loudest when there is a train wreck at first base. Therefore, in situations like we were discussing, when I see a runner who has used the running lane right up until her "move to the bag," I am going to give her the benefit of a doubt and not ring her up on interference in the play that we were originally discussing.

Is there really a necessity for the BR to have any part of their body other than maybe the left foot at any given time?

In a perfect world, where every kid is taught good mechanics and the fundamentals of the game, no there isn't.

In a world of moms and dads who are rec league coaches or travel coaches, who can say?!

Scott

Agreed! Like I said, I didn't have a problem with the call. I just think we, as umpires, shouldn't just automatically assume the runner needs that last stride very far inside the line.

IOW, we know it happens, we are going to see it happen, and we should wait and evaluate the situation when it happens, not necessarily have it etched in our brain that we should expect it to happen and automatically give the runner the benefit of the doubt without thinking about it.

[CecilOne]

Actually, if the runner's foot comes down on the ground and only brushes the edge of the base, the call is safe. And guess what, if the runner misses the edge by 1/4" or maybe 1/2", we can't see that from an inside the diamond angle, still safe.

[Dakota]

Does the "neighborhood play" have any traditional use in softball? This is a practical unwritten adjustment to the rules that high school age and up baseball uses to allow fielders to get the out while staying out of the way of the runners. I don't recall it ever being discussed on a softball rules board, so my assumption is that it is not an accepted practice in softball. Maybe metal cleats has something to do with it.

What about it?

[Andy]

Originally posted by Dakota
Does the "neighborhood play" have any traditional use in softball? This is a practical unwritten adjustment to the rules that high school age and up baseball uses to allow fielders to get the out while staying out of the way of the runners. I don't recall it ever being discussed on a softball rules board, so my assumption is that it is not an accepted practice in softball. Maybe metal cleats has something to do with it.

What about it?

Well, this thread has been completly hijacked!

Tom, I have heard that the NCAA and the JC level expects the "neighborhood" call to be made, especially at second base on a double play attempt. I don't work either level, just heard this from talking to some local guys that do. Maybe the Kellerumps or Del-Blue can comment.

[Del-Blue]

Ok, I guess I'll get in on this. I'm not really doing anything at work right now.

First of all I almost gave the same answer as Mike did. I also have to wonder why everyone keeps saying the runner has to exit the lane to touch the bag. Just can't agree.

Now to answer Andy. I have never given the "in the neighborhood" call in any NCAA game. I think a couple of the college coaches around here would go ballistic.

I always get a kick out of the upper leagues in slow pitch who always say. Come on blue you gotta give us that call.

Tag the base, I'll give you the out.

[Del-Blue]

Ok, I guess I'll get in on this. I'm not really doing anything at work right now.

First of all I almost gave the same answer as Mike did. I also have to wonder why everyone keeps saying the runner has to exit the lane to touch the bag. Just can't agree.

Now to answer Andy. I have never given the "in the neighborhood" call in any NCAA game. I think a couple of the college coaches around here would go ballistic.

I always get a kick out of the upper leagues in slow pitch who always say. Come on blue you gotta give us that call.

Tag the base, I'll give you the out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Del-Blue
Ok, I guess I'll get in on this. I'm not really doing anything at work right now.

First of all I almost gave the same answer as Mike did. I also have to wonder why everyone keeps saying the runner has to exit the lane to touch the bag. Just can't agree.

Now to answer Andy. I have never given the "in the neighborhood" call in any NCAA game. I think a couple of the college coaches around here would go ballistic.

I always get a kick out of the upper leagues in slow pitch who always say. Come on blue you gotta give us that call.

Tag the base, I'll give you the out.

You can tell it's raining in Northern Delaware. Let me see? Nothing going on at work, no golfing in the rain and apparently no softball this afternoon or evening. Sounds like the perfect time to get on a computer.

[Del-Blue]

Mike,

Just got a call from Diane, First round postponed until tomorrow. Henlopen was still on. Kappa and Mason still have to go downstate to find out it's too wet.

[kellerumps]

Begin Rant

The emphasis in College Softball is to get the call right.....PERIOD.

Since I'm on a roll........

Someone mentioned robotic like mechanics and signals....Yes there is that to a certain degree, but it's not limited to just college softball umpires. There is little to no room in Umpiring at that level for individualism. You are a professional.....You show up, do your job and go home...It's becoming big buisiness with alot of stress to go along with it.

If you want to be an individual then call a local league where no one really cares or knows how an umpire is supposed to act.

End Rant

Time to go back to work.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by kellerumps
The emphasis in College Softball is to get the call right.....PERIOD.

I think that is pretty much the emphasis at all levels... and all sports.

So the question becomes, is the "neighborhood call" right period or wrong period?

In my personal opinion, if the throw is good (it doesn't cause the player to leave the bag in order to make the catch), and the footwork at the bag is smooth (no obvious attempt to touch a bag that the fielder felt was missed), and there is some motion toward and in close proximity of the bag (a foot drag or a step within inches of the base)... the fielder is going to get the call. And it is the right call... period.

Forcing the fielder to stand on the bag, look away from the play to find the bag, stomp in the middle of the bag, or any other action that could cause a collision (because the base runner is also coming at the bag) is wrong... period.

Now I realize there is some area of judgement between these two situations and that is where the umpire earns their money. Part of this judgement area is "Where is the runner?" Are they going to be well out or are they going to be close... or safe. What is "proximity" - is that 3 inches or a foot? More judgement.

If using the term "neighborhood call" is a round-about way of asking "If the fielder misses the base are you going to call the runner out?" The answer is an emphatic NO!

IF the fielder doesn't fulfill the smooth continuous motion close to the bag as decribed above, they shouldn't get the call.

Of course each umpire has there own abilities and understanding of the game and these are just my opinions. The fact of the matter is that for the runner to be out, the fielder has gotta touch the base. If I can't reasonably say the fielder touched the base, then the runner is going to be safe.

[whiskers_ump]

If in the vicinity calls or expected, then would we Blues
not have to determine which, the defense or the offense was there
first? If making calls by in the vicinity, then we would have to
be fair. My play on this has always been "touch it prior to runner
arriving, get the out," no touch, no, this is not horseshoes.

glen

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by kellerumps
Begin Rant

The emphasis in College Softball is to get the call right.....PERIOD.

Since I'm on a roll........

Someone mentioned robotic like mechanics and signals....Yes there is that to a certain degree, but it's not limited to just college softball umpires. There is little to no room in Umpiring at that level for individualism. You are a professional.....You show up, do your job and go home...It's becoming big buisiness with alot of stress to go along with it.

If you want to be an individual then call a local league where no one really cares or knows how an umpire is supposed to act.

End Rant

Time to go back to work.

I disagree, the hell with work

Actually, I don't think the umpires I see working NCAA are all that robotic or similar in mechanics (signal-wise). Now, I'm known as being somewhat robotic, but that has never brought me any complaints or criticisms.

Presently, there is no such animal as an NCAA softball umpire. They are softball umpires who work NCAA games. No one is specifically trained as a NCAA umpire, but there are umpires trained in the NCAA rules and prescribed mechanics. So far, from what I've witnessed on the field, many of those prescribed mechanics can vary by region, but they all achieve the same purpose and the differences would most likely only be noticed by veterans.

I would say it is a fair statement that most NCAA umpires received their developmental training from ASA or NFHS with some converting from baseball.

I could be off, but I don't believe by that much. I'm sure Mr. & Mrs. Keller will set me straight.

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

So far, from what I've witnessed on the field, many of those prescribed mechanics can vary by region, but they all achieve the same purpose and the differences would most likely only be noticed by veterans.

I would say it is a fair statement that most NCAA umpires received their developmental training from ASA or NFHS with some converting from baseball.

I think that sums it up pretty damn well, Mike!

Scott

[kellerumps]

Presently, there is no such animal as an NCAA softball umpire. They are softball umpires who work NCAA games.

Not entirely correct. To work in the Major NCAA conferences, you must be evaluated and hired. There is more and more pressure being placed on us to work only NCAA games...be it D1, D2, or D3. It doesn't matter. Basketball and Baseball officals face the same problems. With the travel commitments we must make, its not really worth it to work other "Spring" ball.

No one is specifically trained as a NCAA umpire, but there are umpires trained in the NCAA rules and prescribed mechanics. So far, from what I've witnessed on the field, many of those prescribed mechanics can vary by region, but they all achieve the same purpose and the differences would most likely only be noticed by veterans.

Right now that is true but it is changing very very quickly. Further, that can be said about any other college official.

There is a huge training commitment that a serious umpire must make. Next year for the first time ever the NCAA is having regional rules/mechanics meetings next spring just like basketball/baseball officials have the last several years. Umpires that work in the Major D1 conferences will be required to attend these meetings. Further, we are being evaluated on a more consistent basis and those that are not following the NCAA way of doing things face the prospect of being dropped.

Like I stated, College Softball is becoming big buisiness. That not only means bigger paychecks but also alot more stress and expectations

Once again I will say that we have been extremely lucky. We were in the right place at the right time and met the right person that liked what he/she saw and gave us a chance. Further, we live in a very umpire rich area and have been successful in surrounding ourselves with top level ASA, ISF, and NCAA umpires and friends.

Time for bed.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by kellerumps
Presently, there is no such animal as an NCAA softball umpire. They are softball umpires who work NCAA games.

Not entirely correct. To work in the Major NCAA conferences, you must be evaluated and hired. There is more and more pressure being placed on us to work only NCAA games...be it D1, D2, or D3. It doesn't matter. Basketball and Baseball officals face the same problems. With the travel commitments we must make, its not really worth it to work other "Spring" ball.

No one is specifically trained as a NCAA umpire, but there are umpires trained in the NCAA rules and prescribed mechanics. So far, from what I've witnessed on the field, many of those prescribed mechanics can vary by region, but they all achieve the same purpose and the differences would most likely only be noticed by veterans.

Right now that is true but it is changing very very quickly. Further, that can be said about any other college official.

There is a huge training commitment that a serious umpire must make. Next year for the first time ever the NCAA is having regional rules/mechanics meetings next spring just like basketball/baseball officials have the last several years. Umpires that work in the Major D1 conferences will be required to attend these meetings. Further, we are being evaluated on a more consistent basis and those that are not following the NCAA way of doing things face the prospect of being dropped.

Like I stated, College Softball is becoming big buisiness. That not only means bigger paychecks but also alot more stress and expectations

Once again I will say that we have been extremely lucky. We were in the right place at the right time and met the right person that liked what he/she saw and gave us a chance. Further, we live in a very umpire rich area and have been successful in surrounding ourselves with top level ASA, ISF, and NCAA umpires and friends.

Time for bed.

Please understand, I was in no way attempting to degrade those who work college ball.

I'm well aware that the NCAA is making a move toward gathering control of their softball umpires, though I do not agree with the "collegiate ball only" trend of thought.

The NCAA has no standard system(yet) upon which to rate the umpires, that is done by the associations to which the umpire belongs and probably some conferences have advisors who do the same. And if the associations want to still be included in the long haul, they will be quite strict and well-heeled in their effort to put the best umpires on the field. There is also no standard for obtaining umpires for ball games. Some still contract locally, some conferences contract for the member schools and so on.

However, you can rest assured that the NCAA will have their claws into this within the next couple of years.

My only problem with it is that many schools still play the afternoon games on weekdays. That means there are still some pretty decent umpires omitted from the groups as they have real jobs which to not permit them to travel or work during certain times of the day.