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Old Tue May 06, 2003, 09:50pm
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Question

ASA FP 14u game last night where the pitcher RH had her hands to her sides feet touching plate. When she started her pitching motion she would twist and bring her left arm and glove hand behind her right hip to bring her hands together and then make her pitch.


I thought this was illegal that the touch had to be presented in front of the pitcher but looking briefly at the rule book tonight I could not find where it said that the touch must be in front.


Am I missing something or was I wrong about the touch having to be in front

Thanks

Don
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Old Wed May 07, 2003, 06:29am
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I agree that theres nothing saying it has to be in front. Also, my daughter was taught that you had to bring the hands togeather in front of your body and pause before you started the motion. But it appears that as long as she keeps the hands togeather for 1 second, it doesn't matter where the hands are.
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Old Wed May 07, 2003, 07:43am
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Speaking Dixie

6:01 — Before starting the delivery (pitch), the pitcher shall comply with the following:.
(B) — Preliminary to pitching, the pitcher must come to a full and complete stop facing the batter with both shoulders in line with first and third base, and with the ball held in both hands in front of the body.

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Old Wed May 07, 2003, 08:20am
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I went stupid... ASA rule 6.1A says the same thing 'the shoulders shall be in line with 1st & 3rd bases. After the hands cometogeather then, she could bring them to her side and pitch.
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Old Wed May 07, 2003, 09:06am
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Quote:
Originally posted by oppool
ASA FP 14u game last night where the pitcher RH had her hands to her sides feet touching plate. When she started her pitching motion she would twist and bring her left arm and glove hand behind her right hip to bring her hands together and then make her pitch.

I thought this was illegal that the touch had to be presented in front of the pitcher but looking briefly at the rule book tonight I could not find where it said that the touch must be in front.

Am I missing something or was I wrong about the touch having to be in front

Thanks
Don
Sounds legal to me, for ASA and NFHS. NFHS does say "in front of the body", but that has been interpreted as "visible to the batter". The shoulders squared applies to the starting point when taking the signal. BTW, I think the term "presented" is only used in LL, where they have a different rule. That might be where the Dixie rule comes from.
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Old Wed May 07, 2003, 12:11pm
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CecilOne is correct. The term "presented" is mainly used in LL (not sure I like the word "only" )

LL rules state that the pitcher "...shall hold the ball in one or both hands in front of the body for not less than one second and not more than 10 seconds before starting the delivery." Rule 8.01(f)

For those interested, NCAA rules state " After receiving the catcher's signal, the pitcher's hands must come together in view of the plate umpire for no more than 10 seconds." Rule 10 Section 2c

As for ASA, well, CecilOne already stated that one. No where in rule book does it state that pitcher has to hold the ball in front of body. Of course, since it says that the pitcher shall hold the ball on both hands, hope you're working a 2-man. Be kinda hard for PU to determine if pitcher did in fact hold ball with both hands when she's bringing her arms behind her back.
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Old Fri May 09, 2003, 10:20am
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Quote:
Originally posted by VaASAump
CecilOne is correct. The term "presented" is mainly used in LL (not sure I like the word "only" )
I guess "only" is like never, a word that never applies. Around here, we have NFHS, NCAA, ASA, PONY and LL. I keep trying to avoid the "present the ball" terminology so we non-LL umps don't get caught up in LL pitch rules.

Quote:
Originally posted by VaASAump
As for ASA, well, CecilOne already stated that one. No where in rule book does it state that pitcher has to hold the ball in front of body. ... snip ...
Hypothetically, because the "shoulders square" and "holding the ball" are both part of 6-1, a possible implication is that they must be done jointly, not in sequence. Then the pitch starts with the separation of the hands and (my interpretation) the batter has to be able to see that to be legal. But then 6-1-B and 6-1-C can't be done jointly, so that negates that view.

However, all that is irrelevant because you can't call what you can't see, so if the hand joining is not visible, it didn't happen and it's illegal. Nice of NCAA to be so specific.
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Old Fri May 09, 2003, 10:30am
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Quote:
Originally posted by CecilOne
[B

Quote:
Originally posted by VaASAump
As for ASA, well, CecilOne already stated that one. No where in rule book does it state that pitcher has to hold the ball in front of body. ... snip ...
Hypothetically, because the "shoulders square" and "holding the ball" are both part of 6-1, a possible implication is that they must be done jointly, not in sequence. Then the pitch starts with the separation of the hands and (my interpretation) the batter has to be able to see that to be legal. But then 6-1-B and 6-1-C can't be done jointly, so that negates that view.

However, all that is irrelevant because you can't call what you can't see, so if the hand joining is not visible, it didn't happen and it's illegal. Nice of NCAA to be so specific. [/B]
A. If the ball is not BEHIND the pitcher, it must be in FRONT of the pitcher.

B. So, if the bare hand leaves your sight behind the glove, you are calling it illegal because the pitcher didn't show you that the hands were actually joined?

I hope I'm reading this wrong as I wouldn't want to be the umpire who needed to sell that one.


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Old Fri May 09, 2003, 11:19am
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Quote:
Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA ... snip ... B. So, if the bare hand leaves your sight behind the glove, you are calling it illegal because the pitcher didn't show you that the hands were actually joined?

I hope I'm reading this wrong as I wouldn't want to be the umpire who needed to sell that one.
Not the reading, just me not explaining every detail. If "the bare hand leaves your sight behind the glove", with the glove visible, that would appear to be joining the hands, so that is assumed to fulfill the rule. As I understand it, the purpose of this sub-rule is so the batter knows the pitch is coming and in the batter's line of vision, behind the glove is the same as together. At times, as BU I am tempted to call non-joining, but if the bare hand seems to be behind the glove in the batter's line of vision, then no call.

And yes, "If the ball is not BEHIND the pitcher, it must be in FRONT of the pitcher." Visibility is the concept.
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