I screwed up ... how to fix it?

[Linknblue]

Situation: Runner on 1st, no outs. Batter hits ground ball to F6 who throws to F4 for DP. F4 catches ball but she pulls her foot before she has possession of ball. I rule safe, pulled foot and follow play to first where I rule out. As I turn back I see runner I called safe at second heading for dugout thinking she was out................now, for whatever reason, I tell her "Go back, your were safe". Dumb yeah, but I did it. Of course DC comes out, politely I have to say and says, I know what you did and I understand it, but.............pitcher had ball in circle while runner was off base (going back to dugout), isn't she out for not being on her base when pitcher had ball. Now is when I realize what I did was big mistake. I have no clue where ball was because in my head as soon as BR was ruled out at first I'm thinking "plays over, dead ball, next batter". (I think I went into my slowpitch mode a bit.) Needless to say, I screwed up. I had to tell coach that but I can't rule on ball in circle stuff since I didn't see it. He walks off muttering..............was there a fix to this after all that transpired? Plate guy was no help since he didn't think about ball in circle stuff either.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Linknblue

Situation: Runner on 1st, no outs. Batter hits ground ball to F6 who throws to F4 for DP. F4 catches ball but she pulls her foot before she has possession of ball. I rule safe, pulled foot and follow play to first where I rule out. As I turn back I see runner I called safe at second heading for dugout thinking she was out................now, for whatever reason, I tell her "Go back, your were safe". Dumb yeah, but I did it. Of course DC comes out, politely I have to say and says, I know what you did and I understand it, but.............pitcher had ball in circle while runner was off base (going back to dugout), isn't she out for not being on her base when pitcher had ball. Now is when I realize what I did was big mistake. I have no clue where ball was because in my head as soon as BR was ruled out at first I'm thinking "plays over, dead ball, next batter". (I think I went into my slowpitch mode a bit.) Needless to say, I screwed up. I had to tell coach that but I can't rule on ball in circle stuff since I didn't see it. He walks off muttering..............was there a fix to this after all that transpired? Plate guy was no help since he didn't think about ball in circle stuff either.

As described, the runner didn't violate the look back rule anyway. Believing she was out she left the base before the pitcher had the ball. (Or more likely never even came all the way in to second. (And I'm assuming that she was headed to the first base dugout since she ran past you.) Since she wasn't on the base when the pitcher got the ball, she's entitled to one stop after which she must immediately commit to a base. She committed to second and went straight there.

Now, if we modify your scenario so there was a look back rule violation, then yes you would have kicked it but no you can't call her out. If you and your partner had been staring at first while the R1 ran to third, the ball was thrown over there and she was tagged and then you both looked over and saw her standing on the bag with the third baseman and every coach screaming at you, you couldn't call her out because you didn't see it and this is no different. You only get to call the outs you manage to see (and the ones you don't you have to work for free to make up for. )

[MD Longhorn]

I concur. Forget your instructions to the player - it doesn't sound like she did anything wrong - even if you both DID see the ball in the circle. After listening to coach and thinking through the situation slowly, I would have asked him what part of the LBR he thought she violated.

Question - exactly where was she when you reiterated your call to her? What was the sequence of events (i.e. in what order did the following items occur: You speaking to player, out at first, ball returned to pitcher, player touches 2nd, coach comes out)

Also - the other consideration here is that you gave instructions to the player. Technically it's not a dead ball when you do so - but I think you can rationalize it that way.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Also - the other consideration here is that you gave instructions to the player. Technically it's not a dead ball when you do so - but I think you can rationalize it that way.

No, but it is a dead ball when the DC enters the field of play.

Once you realize the ball is in the circle, the LBR is in effect and unless the runner stopped or reversed field more than once in returning to 2B, the runner is okay.

[Linknblue]

Just to clear it up a bit. BR slides into 2nd. I looked at throw to 1st, called the out and turned back looking inside and she passed me by. That's when I told her....plays over for me. Next thing I see is DC talking to my partner and me thinking "What's up?". Then he comes out to me. Ball is of course in pitcher's hand in circle for I don't know how long. We have our discussion and I simply say to his comment about the LBR, I didn't see that part of play so I can't call that even though if that's what happened he's technically correct. In think'n back, I remember her simply hearing me, turning around and going back to 2nd...no play ever made. We (I) ruled she stays at 2nd and we play on. No penalty, no foul......didn't stop the muttering as he walked away albeit it was at least only so he and I could hear it.

[MD Longhorn]

The way you describe it, I find it incredibly unlikely you have a LBR violation here, even if you WERE watching the ball get to the pitcher. First, it sounds like she only reversed once, which is legal no matter when the pitcher got the ball during the described sequence (to the nitpickers, I'm making what I think is a safe assumption that she was not still standing on 2nd when the ball got to pitcher).

Besides ... if defensive coach was out talking to your partner immediately after the play at first, he killed the play before LBR had a chance to become involved anyway. Sounds (to me) like he was out on the field before or right as pitcher got the ball in the first place.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Besides ... if defensive coach was out talking to your partner immediately after the play at first, he killed the play before LBR had a chance to become involved anyway. Sounds (to me) like he was out on the field before or right as pitcher got the ball in the first place.

To both Mike's: Am I missing something? If the DC comes out to talk to me while the runners are still off base I'm not granting time. I'm telling him to stay off the field until the play is over. Should I be?

This question runs into an area I'm not sure how to handle. What is the correct mechanic for a runner who is called safe thinking she's out and starts running off the field. Do nothing?

If she gets to first or third in the OP and then we have time, it seems pretty obvious she's staying there.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by youngump

To both Mike's: Am I missing something? If the DC comes out to talk to me while the runners are still off base I'm not granting time. I'm telling him to stay off the field until the play is over. Should I be?

No, you should give him the hand... but it sounds like this was pretty much relaxed action and even though the umpires SHOULD have known there was still play going on, they did not. Once he engaged in a conversation with the coach, I think he'd defacto rung the time-out bell, so to speak.

This question runs into an area I'm not sure how to handle. What is the correct mechanic for a runner who is called safe thinking she's out and starts running off the field. Do nothing?

Depends... if you weren't clear (say, in retrospect, you know you rushed off to the next base after calling safe, knowing there was another play - and you might not have been clear in your call), fix it. However, in most cases, it's not our job to coach them. You said safe. She decided to walk back toward first for whatever reason. Honestly, as long as she's not doing it intentionally to make a travesty of the game (I HATE that rule), she is not (yet) illegal. Let the play play out. Wait until you have a reason to call an out before calling one.

If she gets to first or third in the OP and then we have time, it seems pretty obvious she's staying there.

Still, don't call time. (Unless, obviously, you have a coach wanting time and everything has finally stopped). Say she goes there (1st or 3rd --- 1st in the OP) and stops. Pitcher has the (live!) ball, and THEN a coach realizes she's screwed up and tells her to go back to 2nd... you do, then, have an LBR violation.

[Linknblue]

In the situation I described the coach didn't run out onto the field. He went to the PU, had some sort of discussion, then came out to me. This was all after the play was over. The coach did nothing wrong, he was by the book as far as I was concerned.

Once again, "in my mind" at the time I felt the play was over as soon as I called the out at 1st. I then turned and saw runner going off the field toward 1st base dugout (play in actuality was still live but my mindset was it was over). I told her as she passed "No, you weren't out, go back." She did and it was then when I'm sure the coach came out and went to PU. Did he request time, don't know, but a discussion started with PU.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Linknblue

In the situation I described the coach didn't run out onto the field. He went to the PU, had some sort of discussion, then came out to me. This was all after the play was over. The coach did nothing wrong, he was by the book as far as I was concerned.

Here's where I differ (admitting completely that I was not actually there and you were!)...

You can't get to the PU without running "out onto the field". This does not mean within fair territory or anything of the sort. Was he out of the dugout? Yes? Then yes, he was "out onto the field".

Once again, "in my mind" at the time I felt the play was over as soon as I called the out at 1st. I then turned and saw runner going off the field toward 1st base dugout (play in actuality was still live but my mindset was it was over). I told her as she passed "No, you weren't out, go back." She did and it was then when I'm sure the coach came out and went to PU. Did he request time, don't know, but a discussion started with PU.

So if you're saying he waited until play was actually over (and not just when you thought it was ... but when it REALLY was over), then he's fine - but I strongly believe that as described you could not possibly have LBR violation.

If you still do, forget the coach, and assume the pitcher received the ball very quickly after the play at first and held it in the circle. Describe to us what part of the rule you think she may have broken. Specifically. IOW - "She stopped twice while the pitcher had the ball" or whatever.

Truly, I think there's zero chance you guys missed one here, even with the admitted inattentiveness. The plus here is that the next time, A) you won't tell the player what to do and B) you (and partner) will be more aware of exactly when the pitcher got the ball and who is doing what at that moment.

[Linknblue]

Interestingly enough, I had the exact same play the next day. I kept my mouth shut this time and the offensive coaches figured it out and I didn't have a LBR to enforce........................See, old guys can learn.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Linknblue

Interestingly enough, I had the exact same play the next day. I kept my mouth shut this time and the offensive coaches figured it out and I didn't have a LBR to enforce........................See, old guys can learn.

Could just be coincidence to have it happen twice in close proximity, but have you considered that maybe your safe call isn't loud enough?

[EsqUmp]

Keep the following two philosophies in mind. While they won't always give you a guaranteed answer, they will help you out in oddball situations.

1: When in doubt, err on the side of ruling against the team that screwed up or caused the ultimate problem. You shouldn't penalize the team that didn't do something wrong. For example, B1 gets an outfield hit splitting F7 & F8. F3 improperly stands just off of 1st base and obstructs B1 as she rounds 1st base. As the base umpire, you aren't sure whether B1 definitely would have been safe at 2nd base if she attempted a double. However, you think there is a reasonable chance that she could have been safe at 2nd base. Give B1 2nd base. Why? Because B1 didn't do anything wrong and she was prevented from making a legitimate attempt to advance. Additionally, not awarding the base encourages teams to continual obstruct knowing that there won't be consequences. Don't mischaracterize my comment - If there is no chance for B1 to make 2nd base safely, obviously you don't award her 2nd base.

2: Generally speaking, umpires cannot penalize a player when the umpire put the player in jeopardy. For example, the base umpire doesn't hold his call and calls R1 advancing to 2nd base out even though F6 has dropped the ball. If R1 steps off of 2nd base, she cannot properly be declared out because the umpire's improper mechanic and ruling placed her in jeopardy. In the present case, signaling and verbalizing "pulled foot" and then signaling safe is the proper mechanic. It is the player's fault for vacating the base. The solution is for the runner to stay there unless she is sure she is out. Additionally, THAT'S WHAT BASE COACHES ARE FOR. It isn't our job to tell the players what to do. It's the coaches job.