Screwed up situation

[Ex Blue]

I need some help. Here is what happened. I was the base umpire.

High school baseball. Bottom of 7th, visitors were ahead 9-8. Bases loaded, 1 out. The batter hit a line drive to right center and the winning run from second was headed to the plate as the ball was being thrown to the catcher. The first baseman, who was near the mound, cut the ball and threw to third to easily get the slow moving R1. R1 was running to third because he assumed the play would go to the plate since the winning run was scoring and his run did not matter. While all this was going on, the batter runner was watching the action and not paying attention to his base running. He missed first by two feet, which I saw clearly. The manager appealed under the new high school appeal rule and I called him out for the third out. Since the third out was at first base, the plate umpire and I conferred and disallowed the two runs, which gave the visitors the win. The home team went crazy and we had to be escorted off of the field. As we were leaving, the coach yelled at us that he was protesting the game but we had no time to get any of his reasons.

A couple days later, I got a call from the assignor asking me if the winning run scored before the out on R1 was made at third. I told him that I did not know, since I was the base umpire and had my back turned to the plate. The plate umpire also received the same call and he told the assignor that he could not remember. Keep in mind that the play at third was for the second out of the inning.

A week later, I found out that the protest was upheld and the game was awarded to the home team. The protest committee reviewed the circumstances, talked to witnesses, and decided that with near certainty, the winning run scored before the second out was made at third. Under rule 2-20 (2), which was cited by the protest committee in their ruling, a game is immediately over when the winning run crosses the plate in the bottom of the last inning except for base running infractions. Therefore, although the appeal out at first was legal because it was a base running infraction, the second out of R1 at third was not valid because it was made after the game was over.

We have harsh rules for umpires who miss a rule. If a protest is upheld against an umpire, the state bars him from working playoff games for two years and also bars him from working any varsity games for one year. Also, our organization automatically demoted us one rank in the umpire organization. In addition, we will not be paid for the game are will be fined $50 each. Since I only work varsity baseball, the rest of my season has been revoked.

Did we get the call right? I am not at all sure of their reasoning. The second out was made within a second or two of the winning run scoring and none of this was brought up at the field. Not that their was any opportunity because of the chaos.

The umpire president is a lawyer. He says that he will wave the $50 fine if I can find authoritative sources to back up my position. My banning from varsity and playoff games stands no matter what proof that I uncover, because the protest committeeÂ’s decision is final. The lawyer president suggested that I should have lied about seeing the missed base at first and avoided the whole mess.

I have six years of umpiring and I did some college scrimmages this year and I was scheduled for a few college games next year. ThatÂ’s all out the window now and I have turned in my resignation and retired from umpiring. The only question mark is that $50. I am owed about $500 for the games that I worked so I canÂ’t get out of paying it unless I can come up with authoritative opinion to the contrary. The president recommended that I write a letter to this web site and he would accept your opinion. He is not at all sure that the protest committee got it right either but even if they did not, my career is over. I cannot not undo the demotion and sanctions.

[greymule]

I'd say you got it right. What does it matter when the run scored in relation the R1 being out? The third out was made by the batter runner before he reached first base safely. No runs can score.

I can't find a game-ender like the one you describe, but the Fed casebook does cite this play: 9.1.1 Situation I: With the bases loaded and one out, B5 hits a line drive to the right field fence. R1 and R2 score. R3 is thrown out at the plate. B5 goes to third but misses first. Ruling: No runs score. B5's out for missing first was the third out.

Logically, if, even after the "winning" run scores, the batter runner is still liable to be put out, how can another runner (in your case, R1) NOT be liable to be put out?

The game is over "except for baserunning infractions." Well, there was a baserunning infraction, so the game wasn't over. R1 could still be put out, and the batter makes three.

I am eager to hear authoritative replies on this play, but right now I'd rather go into court having nullified the runs than having scored them.

[DOC1]

Hey exblue, sounds like the people in high places of your
association need to get a life. I think you made THE CORRECT
CALL. Read about this kind of play all ready this year on
another site. We have gone over the same way you handled it
with our umpire's in Louisiana. Sorry about what happened
to you.

[Marty Rogers]

Your post upsets and shocks me. It sounds like they (the Protest Committee) have it all wrong. Graymule's example of Rule 9.1.1 (sit. 1) sounds like almost the exact situation, where the third out for missing 1st nullified all runs. Can you contact the NFHS (the FEDs) and get a ruling officially from them? And the suggestion that you "pretend" you didn't see the runner miss, what BS is that?

Doesn't the batter-runner always have to touch first base (as in an out-of-the-park homerun) before the run can count and the game is over? Or has FED taken THAT out of baseball?? And all the fines, demotions, suspensions...
what state do you live in? I'll be sure to avoid it if that's how they treat their HS officials (especially when they have the ruling/decision wrong). IMHO
You are definitely getting the shaft.

[greymule]

The more I think about the way you have been treated, the more I think you should retain a lawyer yourself. You were told you should have lied; they have sanctioned you and will not revoke the sanction even if it turns out you were entirely correct in your ruling; they are destroying your career for making an intelligent, good-faith judgment that is supported by casebook ruling; they have made an a priori decision on your call without seeking a ruling from an easily consulted final authority.

When these commissars are looking down the barrel of a lawsuit, they may have second thoughts.

How can they have such a blanket (Draconian) policy concerning upheld protests? Is every upheld protest proof of an umpire's incompetence? If there's gross negligence involved--rules that every umpire should know or plays that are specifically in the casebook--that's one thing. But a play like yours where the only casebook ruling SUPPORTS you, where at the very least a strong argument can be made for your call, that's just plain crazy.

People are asking what state this all occurred in, but it's obvious it's the state of Alice's Wonderland: Decision first, facts later.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Ex Blue
I need some help. Here is what happened. I was the base umpire.

High school baseball. Bottom of 7th, visitors were ahead 9-8. Bases loaded, 1 out. The batter hit a line drive to right center and the winning run from second was headed to the plate as the ball was being thrown to the catcher. The first baseman, who was near the mound, cut the ball and threw to third to easily get the slow moving R1. R1 was running to third because he assumed the play would go to the plate since the winning run was scoring and his run did not matter. While all this was going on, the batter runner was watching the action and not paying attention to his base running. He missed first by two feet, which I saw clearly. The manager appealed under the new high school appeal rule and I called him out for the third out. Since the third out was at first base, the plate umpire and I conferred and disallowed the two runs, which gave the visitors the win. The home team went crazy and we had to be escorted off of the field. As we were leaving, the coach yelled at us that he was protesting the game but we had no time to get any of his reasons.

A couple days later, I got a call from the assignor asking me if the winning run scored before the out on R1 was made at third. I told him that I did not know, since I was the base umpire and had my back turned to the plate. The plate umpire also received the same call and he told the assignor that he could not remember. Keep in mind that the play at third was for the second out of the inning.

A week later, I found out that the protest was upheld and the game was awarded to the home team. The protest committee reviewed the circumstances, talked to witnesses, and decided that with near certainty, the winning run scored before the second out was made at third. Under rule 2-20 (2), which was cited by the protest committee in their ruling, a game is immediately over when the winning run crosses the plate in the bottom of the last inning except for base running infractions. Therefore, although the appeal out at first was legal because it was a base running infraction, the second out of R1 at third was not valid because it was made after the game was over.

We have harsh rules for umpires who miss a rule. If a protest is upheld against an umpire, the state bars him from working playoff games for two years and also bars him from working any varsity games for one year. Also, our organization automatically demoted us one rank in the umpire organization. In addition, we will not be paid for the game are will be fined $50 each. Since I only work varsity baseball, the rest of my season has been revoked.

Did we get the call right? I am not at all sure of their reasoning. The second out was made within a second or two of the winning run scoring and none of this was brought up at the field. Not that their was any opportunity because of the chaos.

The umpire president is a lawyer. He says that he will wave the $50 fine if I can find authoritative sources to back up my position. My banning from varsity and playoff games stands no matter what proof that I uncover, because the protest committeeÂ’s decision is final. The lawyer president suggested that I should have lied about seeing the missed base at first and avoided the whole mess.

I have six years of umpiring and I did some college scrimmages this year and I was scheduled for a few college games next year. ThatÂ’s all out the window now and I have turned in my resignation and retired from umpiring. The only question mark is that $50. I am owed about $500 for the games that I worked so I canÂ’t get out of paying it unless I can come up with authoritative opinion to the contrary. The president recommended that I write a letter to this web site and he would accept your opinion. He is not at all sure that the protest committee got it right either but even if they did not, my career is over. I cannot not undo the demotion and sanctions.

You can certainly undo both the demotion and the santions.

Email me at [email protected] .

I'll provide the correct ruling (they're wrong on TWO accounts) as well as a resumé that will prove my opinion is authoritative.

[greymule]

Carl, please also post the ruling and the two places they blew it.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by Ex Blue

I need some help. Here is what happened. I was the base umpire.

High school baseball. Bottom of 7th, visitors were ahead 9-8. Bases loaded, 1 out. The batter hit a line drive to right center and the winning run from second was headed to the plate as the ball was being thrown to the catcher. The first baseman, who was near the mound, cut the ball and threw to third to easily get the slow moving R1. R1 was running to third because he assumed the play would go to the plate since the winning run was scoring and his run did not matter. While all this was going on, the batter runner was watching the action and not paying attention to his base running. He missed first by two feet, which I saw clearly. The manager appealed under the new high school appeal rule and I called him out for the third out. Since the third out was at first base, the plate umpire and I conferred and disallowed the two runs, which gave the visitors the win. The home team went crazy and we had to be escorted off of the field. As we were leaving, the coach yelled at us that he was protesting the game but we had no time to get any of his reasons.

A couple days later, I got a call from the assignor asking me if the winning run scored before the out on R1 was made at third. I told him that I did not know, since I was the base umpire and had my back turned to the plate. The plate umpire also received the same call and he told the assignor that he could not remember. Keep in mind that the play at third was for the second out of the inning.

A week later, I found out that the protest was upheld and the game was awarded to the home team. The protest committee reviewed the circumstances, talked to witnesses, and decided that with near certainty, the winning run scored before the second out was made at third. Under rule 2-20 (2), which was cited by the protest committee in their ruling, a game is immediately over when the winning run crosses the plate in the bottom of the last inning except for base running infractions. Therefore, although the appeal out at first was legal because it was a base running infraction, the second out of R1 at third was not valid because it was made after the game was over.

We have harsh rules for umpires who miss a rule. If a protest is upheld against an umpire, the state bars him from working playoff games for two years and also bars him from working any varsity games for one year. Also, our organization automatically demoted us one rank in the umpire organization. In addition, we will not be paid for the game are will be fined $50 each. Since I only work varsity baseball, the rest of my season has been revoked.

Did we get the call right? I am not at all sure of their reasoning. The second out was made within a second or two of the winning run scoring and none of this was brought up at the field. Not that their was any opportunity because of the chaos.

The umpire president is a lawyer. He says that he will wave the $50 fine if I can find authoritative sources to back up my position. My banning from varsity and playoff games stands no matter what proof that I uncover, because the protest committeeÂ’s decision is final. The lawyer president suggested that I should have lied about seeing the missed base at first and avoided the whole mess.

I have six years of umpiring and I did some college scrimmages this year and I was scheduled for a few college games next year. ThatÂ’s all out the window now and I have turned in my resignation and retired from umpiring. The only question mark is that $50. I am owed about $500 for the games that I worked so I canÂ’t get out of paying it unless I can come up with authoritative opinion to the contrary. The president recommended that I write a letter to this web site and he would accept your opinion. He is not at all sure that the protest committee got it right either but even if they did not, my career is over. I cannot not undo the demotion and sanctions.

You said HS, and wanted some authoritative opinion to back it up so what better authoritative opinion than the HS rules / case book themselves.

FED rule 9-1-1 a run is NOT scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in which the third out is made as follows:

a. by the batter runner before he touches first base;

Here's a FED case play similar to your situation

FED case play 9.1.1I

With the bases loaded and one out, B1 hits a line drive to the right field fence. R3,R2 score. R1 is thrown out at the plate. B1 goes to third but misses first.

RULING NO RUNS SCORE - B1's out for missing first was the third out.

COMMENT No runs can score if the third out is a aforce out or if the batter does not reach first (8-2 Penalty)

Therefore, simply show the Pres or whomever the FED rule / case book for your support.

Pete Booth

[greymule]

PeteBooth: 9.1.1 Sit. I was already cited on the thread. The commissars are claiming (wrongly) that a game-ending play falls into some other category.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by greymule

PeteBooth: 9.1.1 Sit. I was already cited on the thread. The commissars are claiming (wrongly) that a game-ending play falls into some other category.

My bad - it's Monday but how can someone argue about the constitution? It's right there in the FED rule / case book.

Perhaps a letter to the FED would do the trick.

Pete Booth

[bluezebra]

It seems you're dealing with a bunch of fascistic morons. If they don't rectify the situation after Carl contacts them, I firmly believe that you should get an attorney. The members of your association should back you up by threatening a "job action". No one works, until justice is done. If I was involved, I would not work that school district's game until you were exonerated.

I don't understand your association president. He's a lawyer? He should know the rule regarding no run scores if third out is at first basse. And, he should serve papers on behalf of you and the association regarding the situation. If all else fails, take them all to small claims court.

How you can be suspended for following the rules makes me sick. No wonder there's a shortage of officials around the country.

Bob

[BlueGhost_Scout]

Dear Ex-Blue,
I should be saying ex-protest committe,

I can't tell you how much this pissed me off. Because I'm on the west coast and up late, I saw your post before it had a response. I was so dumbfounded I couldn't reply. Half of me says good riddins to bad rubbish. Any organization that is as screwed up as your's diserves to loose a good, hard working, caring worker. The other half says sue the Bass Tirds.

Fortunately, it sounds like Carl has some good adcvice. Meanwhile, the season is moving on. You are already missing games. This is a travisty of the Highest Degree.

We are all subject to make honest mistakes. You didn't in this case. What's next? The protest committee decides your strike zone is too Hi/Lo/Narrow/Wide? I'm willing to bet not a single person (if they can be called persons) on that committee is /was an umpire. Another travisty!

Carl, you have enough friends (and advesaries) in high enough places to seriously give Mr. Ex-Blue the help he so urgently needs. I can't possibly imagine anything more important to every reader of this BB than to see this kind on flagrant Malicious Conduct challenged.

Ex-Blue, you certainly don't want to rub salt in the wounds of your association, but if this doesn't change REAL SOON, please publish the names, addresses, e-mail adresses, phone numbers, fax numbers, of every idiot involved. Don't stop there, go for the school board members (city, county, and State), Athletic Commission members (city, county and state), SCHOOL FINANCE COMMITTEE (city, county, and state). We might have some really poor umps in our groups, but they NEVER get to the level of incompetence that your associotion / protest committee has reached.

[Marty Rogers]

Ex Blue: You have gotten eleven responses to your disturbing post. PLEASE let us know how you are proceeding, and what the end result is. We are behind you, and I hope you will change your user name soon.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by BlueGhost_Scout
Dear Ex-Blue,
I should be saying ex-protest committe,

I can't tell you how much this pissed me off. Because I'm on the west coast and up late, I saw your post before it had a response. I was so dumbfounded I couldn't reply. Half of me says good riddins to bad rubbish. Any organization that is as screwed up as your's diserves to loose a good, hard working, caring worker. The other half says sue the Bass Tirds.

Fortunately, it sounds like Carl has some good adcvice. Meanwhile, the season is moving on. You are already missing games. This is a travisty of the Highest Degree.

We are all subject to make honest mistakes. You didn't in this case. What's next? The protest committee decides your strike zone is too Hi/Lo/Narrow/Wide? I'm willing to bet not a single person (if they can be called persons) on that committee is /was an umpire. Another travisty!

Carl, you have enough friends (and advesaries) in high enough places to seriously give Mr. Ex-Blue the help he so urgently needs. I can't possibly imagine anything more important to every reader of this BB than to see this kind on flagrant Malicious Conduct challenged.

Ex-Blue, you certainly don't want to rub salt in the wounds of your association, but if this doesn't change REAL SOON, please publish the names, addresses, e-mail adresses, phone numbers, fax numbers, of every idiot involved. Don't stop there, go for the school board members (city, county, and State), Athletic Commission members (city, county and state), SCHOOL FINANCE COMMITTEE (city, county, and state). We might have some really poor umps in our groups, but they NEVER get to the level of incompetence that your associotion / protest committee has reached.

Gentlemen:

I'm beginning to smell a rat. We've heard nothing from Ex Blue in public, and I've heard nothing from him in private.

Perhaps he's Ex Internet Subscriber.

Or, perhaps he was pulling our legs in honor of April Fool's Day.

[Edited by Carl Childress on Apr 17th, 2002 at 12:34 PM]

[greymule]

Yeah, and he never identified the state, either. The play and protest were plausible, but on reflection, the rest of his story, with the extreme sanctions he was claiming, was not.