Double first base, appealing

[bainsey]

If I recall correctly, if there's a play at first base, and the batter-runner touches only the white portion of the base, the defense must appeal the play before the batter-runner returns to first.

What if the batter-runner chooses not to return to first? What if the ball gets away, and the runner takes off for second? How does that affect the window for appeal?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by bainsey

If I recall correctly, if there's a play at first base, and the batter-runner touches only the white portion of the base, the defense must appeal the play before the batter-runner returns to first.

What if the batter-runner chooses not to return to first? What if the ball gets away, and the runner takes off for second? How does that affect the window for appeal?

I'm assuming ASA here...

If they advance beyond first base, the defense may certainly appeal the missed base (1st base).

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by bainsey

If I recall correctly, if there's a play at first base, and the batter-runner touches only the white portion of the base, the defense must appeal the play before the batter-runner returns to first.

What if the batter-runner chooses not to return to first? What if the ball gets away, and the runner takes off for second? How does that affect the window for appeal?

No affect at all. Any missed base may be appealed until 1) it is corrected (so no longer missed), or 2) a next pitch, legal or illegal is thrown, or 3) if the end of inning, before all infielders have left the field, or 4) if the end of the game, before the umpires have left the field.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

No affect at all. Any missed base may be appealed until 1) it is corrected (so no longer missed), or 2) a next pitch, legal or illegal is thrown, or 3) if the end of inning, before all infielders have left the field, or 4) if the end of the game, before the umpires have left the field.

Which reminds me, the rule book would be a lot shorter and easier reading if " a next pitch, legal or illegal is thrown, or 3) if the end of inning, before all infielders have left the field, or 4) if the end of the game, before the umpires have left the field" was in a standard definition instead of repeated so much.
[/dreaming off]

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

No affect at all. Any missed base may be appealed until 1) it is corrected (so no longer missed), or 2) a next pitch, legal or illegal is thrown, or 3) if the end of inning, before all infielders have left the field, or 4) if the end of the game, before the umpires have left the field.

Actually, 8-2-M-2 has a shorter appeal window when double first bases are used:

Whenever a play is being made by an infielder on the batter-runner, the defense must use the white portion and the batter-runner the colored portion. The batter-runner is out when there is a play being being made a first base and the batter runner touches only the white portion, providing the defense appeals prior to the batter-runner returning to the base. Once the runner returns to the white, no appeal can be made.

So, are you saying that, if the batter-runner returns to first, the appeal window is closed, but if he goes to any other base, the window remains open?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Actually, 8-2-M-2 has a shorter appeal window when double first bases are used:

What does a foul ball have to do with the appeal. But Steve summarized an appeal for a missed base.

So, are you saying that, if the batter-runner returns to first, the appeal window is closed, but if he goes to any other base, the window remains open?

Just like any other base. FORGET the double-base issue. You may be trying to find something special that is not there.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

What does a foul ball have to do with the appeal.

It doesn't. I meant 8-2-M-3. Thanks.

You may be trying to find something special that is not there.

Actually, I believe I'm pointing out something that isn't there. Unless I'm missing something (and I could be), I see an inconsistency.

Again, if a batter-runner that only touches the white on a play at first is called safe, the window for appeal remains open until he returns to first. (That's a different window than the usual before-the-next-pitch.) If he never goes back to first, though, why should the window for appeal be different, just because he's gone to a different base?

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by bainsey

It doesn't. I meant 8-2-M-3. Thanks.

Actually, I believe I'm pointing out something that isn't there. Unless I'm missing something (and I could be), I see an inconsistency.

Again, if a batter-runner that only touches the white on a play at first is called safe, the window for appeal remains open until he returns to first. (That's a different window than the usual before-the-next-pitch.) If he never goes back to first, though, why should the window for appeal be different, just because he's gone to a different base?

The window for appeal ends when she returns to touch first because, well............. once she returns to touch first, she no longer has missed first!!!


If she never goes back to first (continues on to 2nd) then she still has missed 1st.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

The window for appeal ends when she returns to touch first because, well............. once she returns to touch first, she no longer has missed first!!!


If she never goes back to first (continues on to 2nd) then she still has missed 1st.

Yep, like I said, looking for something that isn't there, nor is there a need to be.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

The window for appeal ends when she returns to touch first because, well............. once she returns to touch first, she no longer has missed first!!!

There lies the simplicity I was seeking.

Thanks. By the way, does the same who-can-appeal rule apply (any defensive player for a live ball, infielder for a dead ball)?

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by bainsey

There lies the simplicity I was seeking.

Thanks. By the way, does the same who-can-appeal rule apply (any defensive player for a live ball, infielder for a dead ball)?

No, as this is an instance of a live ball appeal only. This is a special case of missing a base because the BR can over run first without jeopardy to be put out. Using the wrong portion of the bag is in extension of missing first base.

Therefore, if the BR touches the wrong color while arriving before the ball, the umpire should signal safe (unlike what happened in the Yankees/Blue Jays game last week, thread on the baseball board has a video clip). Then wait for a live ball appeal or the runner to arrive back at first.

However, if the BR continues to second before retouching first (for what ever reason) and is standing on second, then this just becomes a missed base appeal and the deal ball appeal procedure can be used.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by bainsey

There lies the simplicity I was seeking.

Thanks. By the way, does the same who-can-appeal rule apply (any defensive player for a live ball, infielder for a dead ball)?

I have to admit I was wondering where you were missing the connection to the first point 1), being until corrected (which the runner does by returning to touch the base, either base at that point). The rule you were citing simply reflected that, without using those words.

If not corrected, all other appeal windows which might apply still apply; it isn't a different rule, actually, than any other missed base which can be appealed.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I have to admit I was wondering where you were missing the connection to the first point 1), being until corrected (which the runner does by returning to touch the base, either base at that point). The rule you were citing simply reflected that, without using those words.

If not corrected, all other appeal windows which might apply still apply; it isn't a different rule, actually, than any other missed base which can be appealed.

While I agree this is how it's meant to be called (though I don't particularly like the rule), I don't think the rule book actually says this. Allow me to play rulebook lawyer here.

A runner using only the white portion of first base has not missed first base. He has touched first base. If called out on appeal, he's being called out for using only the white portion of first base while a play was being made not for missing the base. (For example see the rules supplement under appeals that differentiates these or try and find a rule that it breaks). And the rule book states that he may be called out for this until he has returned to first base. It does not say as it should that touching only the white portion of first base should be treated as missing first base correctable by touching either part of the base has been retouched.

Suppose that an umpire you were working with, insisted that an appeal be honored after a pitch for this violation and you wanted to show him in the rule book where that was wrong. You could go to the rules supplement where it's clear. But can you find a rule?

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by youngump

A runner using only the white portion of first base has not missed first base. He has touched first base. If called out on appeal, he's being called out for using only the white portion of first base while a play was being made not for missing the base.

That's exactly where my mindset was.

Suppose that an umpire you were working with, insisted that an appeal be honored after a pitch for this violation and you wanted to show him in the rule book where that was wrong. You could go to the rules supplement where it's clear. But can you find a rule?

Actually, I believe I cited that very rule in the fourth post of this thread.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Actually, 8-2-M-2 has a shorter appeal window when double first bases are used:

No, it doesn't ... that's exactly the same.

So, are you saying that, if the batter-runner returns to first, the appeal window is closed, but if he goes to any other base, the window remains open?

I'm not sure why this is difficult. Yes. Of course. He a runner returns and touches a missed base, they've corrected their error - whether this runner is at 2nd or a BR hitting the wrong bag at 1st. Same thing exactly. Once they return to 1st, they've corrected their error.