Obstruction but with a twist.

[jr131981]

if the PU announces the base awards to the runners as R1 is awarded home and R2 is awarded 2nd and R1 or her subsititute do not touch home, i dont see how you cannot call the runner out for abandonment-ASA 8-7-U. at that point in time, it should be apparent to everyone that the runner did not touch home during the play.

as to the injury discussion...
i was playing in a pretty large ASA SP D level tourny a few years ago, as im slowing into 3rd for a stand up triple, i tear my meniscus.... this happened literally 1 step from the base, i fall down, grab my knee (im off the base), the ball comes in, they tag me, ump calls me out and i agree with the call.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jr131981

if the PU announces the base awards to the runners as R1 is awarded home and R2 is awarded 2nd and R1 or her subsititute do not touch home, i dont see how you cannot call the runner out for abandonment-ASA 8-7-U. at that point in time, it should be apparent to everyone that the runner did not touch home during the play.

If you ever call an out for abandonment on a play were a runner simply missed a base, please just quit. For that matter --- if you call an out for abandonment in ASA softball more than once in your career, hang em up. That is NOT what abandonment is.

The defense MUST appeal this miss of home to get an out.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

If you ever call an out for abandonment on a play were a runner simply missed a base, please just quit. For that matter --- if you call an out for abandonment in ASA softball more than once in your career, hang em up. That is NOT what abandonment is.

The defense MUST appeal this miss of home to get an out.

Totally agree on this play. But at some point it's obvious enough that you don't need an appeal, right? Runner at third, catch and carry situation. Dead ball, you've got home. Goes straight to the dugout. How exactly should one handle that?
And if I'm right that this doesn't require an appeal, then where is the line.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by youngump

Totally agree on this play. But at some point it's obvious enough that you don't need an appeal, right? Runner at third, catch and carry situation. Dead ball, you've got home. Goes straight to the dugout. How exactly should one handle that?
And if I'm right that this doesn't require an appeal, then where is the line.

Sorry, I don't have abandonment on that, either. Not truly different than a runner awarded third that cuts across the infield without touching second. Need an appeal, or the run scores as awarded.

"to leave completely and finally; forsake utterly; desert". In other words, giving up, I know (or think) I'm out. Not to be confused with I missed a base, something happened (like an injury) where I was distracted without touching the base, or (in your example) I didn't think I still had to touch that base since you awarded it.

One NFHS case example talks about a runner who over-runs first base, starts toward second, but "gives up" when a defensive player is chasing. Keep that thought process of "giving up" in your head, and runners that miss bases without that simply missed bases; even if the base they miss is home and they enter the team area.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by youngump

Totally agree on this play. But at some point it's obvious enough that you don't need an appeal, right? Runner at third, catch and carry situation. Dead ball, you've got home. Goes straight to the dugout. How exactly should one handle that?
And if I'm right that this doesn't require an appeal, then where is the line.

I'm sure one of our esteemed experts will correct me with some bizarre situation... but I cannot imagine ANY situation where abandonment could be the correct call during a dead ball.

In this case, you awarded home, and they are required to run those bases correctly... but failing to touch (even grossly as in this case) is not a case of abandonment. Even the sitch you describe requires an appeal to call an out.

[jr131981]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

If you ever call an out for abandonment on a play were a runner simply missed a base, please just quit. For that matter --- if you call an out for abandonment in ASA softball more than once in your career, hang em up. That is NOT what abandonment is.

The defense MUST appeal this miss of home to get an out.

Originally Posted by youngump

Totally agree on this play. But at some point it's obvious enough that you don't need an appeal, right? Runner at third, catch and carry situation. Dead ball, you've got home. Goes straight to the dugout. How exactly should one handle that?
And if I'm right that this doesn't require an appeal, then where is the line.

IMO, mind you this is based on nothing more than MY interpretation of the rules, if you announce an the runner is awarded home and they dont touch home, i dont see how its not abandonment. did the runner make an attempt to touch home? no, did the runner go to/stay in the dugout? yes. unless im missing something, why is that not abandonment?


mbcrowder, can you please explain a situation where you would call abandonment? thanks

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jr131981

IMO, mind you this is based on nothing more than MY interpretation of the rules, if you announce an the runner is awarded home and they dont touch home, i dont see how its not abandonment. did the runner make an attempt to touch home? no, did the runner go to/stay in the dugout? yes. unless im missing something, why is that not abandonment?


mbcrowder, can you please explain a situation where you would call abandonment? thanks

Sure. 2 outs. Ball hit in the infield, safe at first but ball thrown to first anyway. Girl turns to the left (but is not making any effort to go to 2nd). All the idiots on the field yell to tag her, F3 tags her. BU rules safe but no one pays attention. F3 rolls the ball to the circle, defense leaves the field. BR heads to right field and someone brings her a glove.

In that sitch, I'd have abandonment (and likely, in this case, a very quiet one).

Basically - to me, if you have less than 2 outs, then in any case where you might think abandonment, you're going to get a LBR once the pitcher gets the ball anyway. Abandonment can happen in baseball more than softball, because for the most part, there's no real rule keeping the runners on the bases after the ball is sent to the pitcher. I've never actually had an abandonment call in softball - but can conceive of it in the case of there being 2 outs and the whole world thinks there are 3.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jr131981

IMO, mind you this is based on nothing more than MY interpretation of the rules, if you announce an the runner is awarded home and they dont touch home, i dont see how its not abandonment. did the runner make an attempt to touch home? no, did the runner go to/stay in the dugout? yes. unless im missing something, why is that not abandonment?

Re-read the rule that actually uses the word abandonment ... can you apply that rule during a dead ball? An awarded base is done during a dead ball. If the runner fails to do their baserunning duties, the defense must appeal to get an out.

[jr131981]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Re-read the rule that actually uses the word abandonment ... can you apply that rule during a dead ball? An awarded base is done during a dead ball. If the runner fails to do their baserunning duties, the defense must appeal to get an out.

rule 8: the batter runner and runner
section 7: the runner is out
part u: when a runner abandons a base and enters the team area or leaves live ball territory.

i see nothing regarding live ball or dead ball

help me understand how the OPs scenario is different than youngumps from post 26

Runner at third, catch and carry situation. Dead ball, you've got home. [runner] Goes straight to the dugout

[youngump]

Originally Posted by jr131981

rule 8: the batter runner and runner
section 7: the runner is out
part u: when a runner abandons a base and enters the team area or leaves live ball territory.

i see nothing regarding live ball or dead ball

help me understand how the OPs scenario is different than youngumps from post 26

Notice, that my post is not abandonment. I was asking if it might be a situation where we didn't need an appeal. Steve who you should listen to answered my question there. So they don't actually need to show a difference to get a different ruling because the ruling is the same.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jr131981

help me understand how the OPs scenario is different than youngumps from post 26

It's not. Neither is it abandonment.

[jr131981]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

It's not. Neither is it abandonment.

ok...

help me understand what the abandonment rule is bc i dont see how youngumps scenario, runner on 3rd, catch and carry, runner is awarded home but simply walks into the 3B dugout instead of running to home plate is not abandonment.

im not sure if im using an improper definition of abandonment or am envisioning something different in my head.

thanks