What Do You Have?, Part II

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I did not want to hijack BretMan's "What Do You Have?" thread, but I have a different but similar situation.


The game was a USSSA Girls' 12U fastpitch.

R1 on first, 1 out. Ground ball to F4. R1 runs into F4 just as F4 fields the ball and knocks F4 to the ground. I know that R1 has committed Interference, the ball is Dead immediately, and R1 is out. Can we get a 2nd out on the B/R? I would appreciate rulings for NFHS, NCAA, ASA, and USSSA (all fastpitch please).

I belive that one can get a 2nd out on the B/R because R1's interference and kept F4 from starting any type of play. (This is a no brainer in baseball: 2 outs. .)

MTD, Sr.

[BretMan]

Since getting two outs is entirely a judgment call, I guess you could get two if that's what you judged.

I most likely would just have one out. A lot has to happen here before you can assume a double play would be turned! F4 still needs to make a good throw to second, F6 still needs to successfully make a catch and tag second bsae, F6 still needs to make a good throw to first and F3 still needs to make a catch and complete a tag of first, all before the batter-runner gets there.

The rule of thumb for me is that a double play is imminent and reasonably expected before awarding two outs.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Since getting two outs is entirely a judgment call, I guess you could get two if that's what you judged.

I most likely would just have one out. A lot has to happen here before you can assume a double play would be turned! F4 still needs to make a good throw to second, F6 still needs to successfully make a catch and tag second bsae, F6 still needs to make a good throw to first and F3 still needs to make a catch and complete a tag of first, all before the batter-runner gets there.

The rule of thumb for me is that a double play is imminent and reasonably expected before awarding two outs.

To me, the play for the second out needs to be in progress or imminemt (very); like the middle infielder starting a throw to 1st.

Also, probably does not matter which rule book; as the possibility of double play, the runner hindering it and how soon runners need to be absent )not needing to evaporate) are all subjective and inconsistently interpreted.

Not hijacking will become a boon.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Also, probably does not matter which rule book; as the possibility of double play, the runner hindering it and how soon runners need to be absent )not needing to evaporate) are all subjective and inconsistently interpreted.

That's as close as I will get to HTBT, but not commenting on a specific case.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Since getting two outs is entirely a judgment call, I guess you could get two if that's what you judged.

I most likely would just have one out. A lot has to happen here before you can assume a double play would be turned! F4 still needs to make a good throw to second, F6 still needs to successfully make a catch and tag second bsae, F6 still needs to make a good throw to first and F3 still needs to make a catch and complete a tag of first, all before the batter-runner gets there.

The rule of thumb for me is that a double play is imminent and reasonably expected before awarding two outs.

Bret -I tend to agree with your reasoning here, but let me play devil's (or defensive coach's) advocate.

The double play could be a tag of the runner, then a throw to first, which is much more likely if the runner is that close to F4 at the time the ball gets to F4. There is still alot that has to happen to complete the double play, but just pointing out that this is another way the DP could be executed.

[MD Longhorn]

It's all judgement, Mark. In all of the rule codes you mention. (And it's not automatic in baseball either). DP are far less common in softball than baseball though, due to the smaller diamond. It depends a lot on the level of ball. My league, I'd NEVER consider this a possibility. Tourney time - absolutely.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I did not want to hijack BretMan's "What Do You Have?" thread, but I have a different but similar situation.


The game was a USSSA Girls' 12U fastpitch.

R1 on first, 0 outs. Ground ball to F4. R1 runs into F4 just as F4 fields the ball and knocks F4 to the ground. I know that R1 has committed Interference, the ball is Dead immediately, and R1 is out. Can we get a 2nd out on the B/R? I would appreciate rulings for NFHS, NCAA, ASA, and USSSA (all fastpitch please).

I belive that one can get a 2nd out on the B/R because R1's interference and kept F4 from starting any type of play. (This is a no brainer in baseball: 2 outs. .)

MTD, Sr.

Fed requires that the interference be "an obvious attempt to prevent a double play" to get the second out. ASA requires that the interference be "an attempt to prevent a double play" (deleting the word "obvious" but still implying intent to prevent a double play). So, with these two, I would not have two outs in your situation unless you saw something that would lead you to judge there was an attempt to prevent the double play.

U-trip gives more leeway, saying "If, in the judgment of the Umpire, a runner interferes in any way and prevents a double play anywhere, two shall be declared out (the runner who interferes and the runner closest to home)." But, even with this, you'd have to judge (in my view) that this 12U team was in the process of executing a double play... pretty rare at 12U in my experience.

[robbie]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Fed requires that the interference be "an obvious attempt to prevent a double play" to get the second out. ASA requires that the interference be "an attempt to prevent a double play" (deleting the word "obvious" but still implying intent to prevent a double play). So, with these two, I would not have two outs in your situation unless you saw something that would lead you to judge there was an attempt to prevent the double play.

U-trip gives more leeway, saying "If, in the judgment of the Umpire, a runner interferes in any way and prevents a double play anywhere, two shall be declared out (the runner who interferes and the runner closest to home)." But, even with this, you'd have to judge (in my view) that this 12U team was in the process of executing a double play... pretty rare at 12U in my experience.

NSA also:
"... in the judgement of the umpire, is an obvious attempt to prevent a double play and occurs before the baserunner is put out..."

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

That's as close as I will get to HTBT, but not commenting on a specific case.

You just don't like to say the words.

[MD Longhorn]

All those referring to attempts (intentional or not) to break up a DP - this sitch has no opportunity for a 2nd out at all. There is NO judgement that could possibly get two outs in the OP. (No reasonable judgement... I think we ALL know who's going to chime in now with his DP judgement).

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Here is how I handled the OP, but first some background. As I stated it was a USSSA Girls' 12U Fastpitch Tournament and MTD, Jr., was behind the plate, because it was our third game of the day on a very very hot day and he is a very good son, .

I ruled R1 out for the Interference infraction and then ruled the B/R out because in my judgement R1's interference kept the defense from completely a DP (F4 tagging R1 and then throwing to F3 for the out at 1B); the two outs ended the inning. The offensive coach questioned my ruling but didn't put up much of a fight and the game proceede without any problems.

After the game, Mark, Jr., said he wasn't sure a DP was a sellable call being that the age group was 12U. But I told him that he learned two valuable lessons: (1) As umpires, we want outs and strikes, ; and (2) we got an inning ending DP on one pitch, . So endth the lesson from the "old man" to his "young whippersnapper" of a son, .

MTD, Sr.

[JefferMC]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

; and (2) we got an inning ending DP on one pitch, .

How did you get an inning ending DP with 0 outs?

Also, as far as preventing a DP... I would think that F4 would have had to had control of the ball before R1 got to her to assume that a tag was reasonable. If R1 got to her and knocked her over before F4 had control, surely she could have run past without getting tagged.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by JefferMC

How did you get an inning ending DP with 0 outs?

I went back to the OP and corrected the typo.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

This weekend MTD, Jr. and I umpired in the ASA-Ohio Girls' 12U State Championships. We had the exact same scenario Saturday morning in Pool Play. Again, Junior was on the Plate. Exact same play as the OP. I yelled TIME!! THAT'S INTERFERENCE, RUNNER OUT! Except, that F4 still managed to field the ball and throw the B/R out at 1B. Instinct, kicked in and I called the B/R for an inning ending DP and no one questioned the call, . The offensive team was using the 1B dugout and even their parents were telling me that was an easy way to end the inning.

MTD, Sr.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci

, I yelled TIME!! THAT'S INTERFERENC, RUNNER OUT!

It is ok to say "DEAD BALL" when the 12 inch "optic yellow" is on the field. Actually, more than ok, it is encouraged, as almost all acts of interference are DEAD BALL (except for umpire interference).

I don't know why the baseball guys have such a hard time with that.