umpire-catcher courtesies

[Andy]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

While I think that's an insane over-reaction... let's say you're right. What exactly should catcher say to her coach when you fail to call a strike on a pitch she thought was in the zone so as to not show you up?

I think I answered that question - if s/he doesn't know, s/he should ask. I will answer..."low", "inside", whatever...she can then relay that info to coach.

If it was a strike and I missed it...see above.

[TexBlue]

Whenever a catcher has a collision or takes a foul ball and I get the impression she is not quite a 100%, I will call time, walk to the front of the plate, accidentally kicking dirt on it and ask her if she is ok, while I am cleaning the plate. I can see no negative aspect or impact on the game by asking the kids if they are ok. This isn't everytime they get bumped, just when I feel they are hiding something. I'm not a babysitter and have no intentions of being one. However, as the plate umpire, I do feel the responsibility of insuring the wellbeing and safety of the kids who are playing a GAME on my field. Nothing wrong with spending 10 seconds or so to check on a kid.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Andy

I think I answered that question - if s/he doesn't know, s/he should ask. I will answer..."low", "inside", whatever...she can then relay that info to coach.

If it was a strike and I missed it...see above.

I guess I'm not understanding how she's showing you up by telling coach she doesn't know why it wasn't a strike... but it's perfectly ok for her to show the word that she didn't know why it wasn't a strike by asking you and then relaying. What's not clicking for me is why this is "showing you up".

I grant you that if coach reacted to this information, I could see your point. I just don't think this catcher is doing anything other than answering he coach's question, and not getting why you, personally (and singularly based on the lack of support here), feel this is taboo.

[topper]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I guess I'm not understanding how she's showing you up by telling coach she doesn't know why it wasn't a strike... but it's perfectly ok for her to show the word that she didn't know why it wasn't a strike by asking you and then relaying. What's not clicking for me is why this is "showing you up".

I grant you that if coach reacted to this information, I could see your point. I just don't think this catcher is doing anything other than answering he coach's question, and not getting why you, personally (and singularly based on the lack of support here), feel this is taboo.

If you read a little closer, you would see that there is support for his position. Not that it should faze him if there wasn't. Everyone else could be dead wrong.

You can call it "insane" if you like, but this is not that uncommon at this level and neither is this umpire's reaction.

[Andy]

LIblueASA covered it pretty well...it's not that she is saying she doesn't know, it's the way it is being said. Shrugging the shoulders is a visible reaction to the coach's question that could be interpreted by anybody watching that she doesn't agree with my call and she is letting eveybody know.

I didn't say that the act of her shrugging her shoulders is showing me up, I said that the act is starting down that path. The quick conversation of her asking where the pitch missed and my replying is heard only between the two of us, nobody knows, she relays the information to her coach, we move on.

The umpire in question that started this part of the discussion chose to react to the shoulder shrug in a very obvious manner. I don't know that I would choose the same path. But, I would at least say something to the catcher to let her know that her actions were inappropriate and needed to cease.

And...thanks for keeping the discussion civil! One of the things I like most about this board!

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MDUmp

It seemed like the only logical explanation to me. Like I said, the plate was clean. That could be seen from where I was sitting. The catcher was nodding her head while he was bent over, so he was definitely saying something to her. That is what I gathered from the situation. I could be wrong.

Thanks. I have been lurking for over 2 years and this thread finally dragged me in. I'm in AA County. I have taken a hiatus from umpiring due to my daughter playing, but I still attend meetings and training sessions in January to get my books and keep up to date. She is a junior in high school this year, so I'll be back on the field in 2013.

I meant why " he would not put up with that"; not why you assumed it.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Andy

LIblueASA covered it pretty well...it's not that she is saying she doesn't know, it's the way it is being said. Shrugging the shoulders is a visible reaction to the coach's question that could be interpreted by anybody watching that she doesn't agree with my call and she is letting eveybody know.

I didn't say that the act of her shrugging her shoulders is showing me up, I said that the act is starting down that path. The quick conversation of her asking where the pitch missed and my replying is heard only between the two of us, nobody knows, she relays the information to her coach, we move on.

The umpire in question that started this part of the discussion chose to react to the shoulder shrug in a very obvious manner. I don't know that I would choose the same path. But, I would at least say something to the catcher to let her know that her actions were inappropriate and needed to cease.

And...thanks for keeping the discussion civil! One of the things I like most about this board!

Would you apply the same thing on a close play at third? You call out. Coach believes the runner was safe. He shrugs his shoulders in frustration and gives the 1st base coach a look across the diamond. Is it time to clean 3rd base? And how is that showing you his disagreement less of a visible showing up then when he calls time, walks over to you, says she was on the bag long before the tag and then politely goes back to his position?

[Andy]

Originally Posted by youngump

Would you apply the same thing on a close play at third? You call out. Coach believes the runner was safe. He shrugs his shoulders in frustration and gives the 1st base coach a look across the diamond. Is it time to clean 3rd base? And how is that showing you his disagreement less of a visible showing up then when he calls time, walks over to you, says she was on the bag long before the tag and then politely goes back to his position?

This thread has certainly taken a left turn from the original posting.....

A play at third base is a different animal....the play happens, umpire calls it, coach expresses dissatisfaction with the call, umpire deals with that, we move on. We may not have another close play on the bases for several more batters.

We have a pitch to start every play. A catcher shrugging her shoulders in response to her coach could be interpreted as her disagreement with the PU's pitch call and it could lead down the path of attempting to show up the umpire. I think I have said this twice before, so one more time may or may not help make my point. Since we have a pitch to start every play, if the catcher, and/or the coach, starts thinking that the umpires strike zone is terrible, they now have something to complain about almost constantly. The situation can only go downhill from there.

As I stated in my previous post..the umpire in question that started this part of the discussion chose to react to the shoulder shrug in a very obvious manner and deal with it early, if in fact, that was the crux of the conversation.

Frankly, I'm surprised at some of the discussion in this post....I have always been told not to let anyone get too far with questioning the strike zone..whether they are doing it openly or not.

[MDUmp]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I meant why " he would not put up with that"; not why you assumed it.

I don't think he would have called time, brushed off a clean plate and had a conversation with the catcher if he was going to put up with it.

Again, this is all just my interpretation of what happened. I could be totally wrong about the whole thing. Maryland is infested with stink bugs right now. Maybe there was one on the plate and he was getting rid of it with his brush. He told the catcher, "Aren't you glad I got that out of your way". Perhaps, that is why she was nodding.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Irish, you have yourself an admirer!

Just what I need!!! With an admirer like that........

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by topper

If you read a little closer, you would see that there is support for his position. Not that it should faze him if there wasn't. Everyone else could be dead wrong.

You can call it "insane" if you like, but this is not that uncommon at this level and neither is this umpire's reaction.

Maybe insane was strong... however, I only know one umpire "at this level" that would react this way (and yes, he's an old-school umpire). I can't tell you how many times we (him included) have been told at clinics, meetings, etc that when it's not 100% clear whether we're being "disrespected" or not - to err on the side of ignoring it. This isn't 1990, and we're not getting MLB bucks to be part of the show. Reacting in the way described seems A) inconsistent with the way one might react to players disagreeing with calls elsewhere and B) a bit over the top and unnecessary - of the "I'm in charge here, you will behave as I tell you." variety.)

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Andy

We have a pitch to start every play. A catcher shrugging her shoulders in response to her coach could be interpreted as her disagreement with the PU's pitch call and it could lead down the path of attempting to show up the umpire. I think I have said this twice before, so one more time may or may not help make my point. Since we have a pitch to start every play, if the catcher, and/or the coach, starts thinking that the umpires strike zone is terrible, they now have something to complain about almost constantly. The situation can only go downhill from there.

I hear you, but I guess to my mind there's a huge gulf between a catcher who disagrees with a single call and one who thinks and acts like the umpire's zone is terrible. And potential "could be" disagreement number one (unvocalized, even) is not the place to head it off.

[MDUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Just what I need!!! With an admirer like that........

They must have followed you here from softballfans.

[Dakota]

I know we all strongly defend softball as a different game from baseball (well, most of us do, anyway), but here is one area where the game could benefit from one of the so-called "unwritten rules" regarding catchers and umpires.

The unwritten baseball rule is that when a catcher wants to lobby for a call for his pitcher, he doesn’t turn around to address the umpire or do anything demonstrative that would show up the umpire. For his part, the umpire doesn’t do anything to show up the player either. The interaction between the two goes unnoticed except by the two of them (and possibly the batter). The umpire MAY brush the plate to communicate with the catcher, but to the observer, he would merely be brushing the plate.

Coaches who want a pitch-by-pitch report from the catcher are interfering with this umpire-catcher protocol by imposing themselves into it in a way that requires demonstration. They should know this, also, violates the unwritten rule and not do it. Find some other way to get their information (or, better, trust their pitcher and catcher to deal with it, especially and the level of game in the OP).

This would be, of course, if softball adopted some of the unwritten baseball rules that govern such things. I, for one, think the game would benefit.

[topper]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Maybe insane was strong... however, I only know one umpire "at this level" that would react this way (and yes, he's an old-school umpire).

Please define "old-school" for me.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I can't tell you how many times we (him included) have been told at clinics, meetings, etc that when it's not 100% clear whether we're being "disrespected" or not - to err on the side of ignoring it.

Who is telling you these things?

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

This isn't 1990, and we're not getting MLB bucks to be part of the show. Reacting in the way described seems A) inconsistent with the way one might react to players disagreeing with calls elsewhere and B) a bit over the top and unnecessary - of the "I'm in charge here, you will behave as I tell you." variety.)

What happened in 1990? I truly don't know.

As to A), it is perfectly consistent with the way one might react to players disagreeing by obviously letting anyone watching know that they think an umpire missed a call.

You may handle these situations as you see fit, but it's often the next official that has to deal with your enabling this behavior.