greatest interference play i ever heard

[andyump]

so are we all in agreement the runner on 3rd has to score since there are 0 outs and the ball was not caught for a legal appeal ,what can we do as umps but to have our car started and run as fast as we can.

[Tru_in_Blu]

As a creative former player/coach, I'm now even considering if the run would score had there been two outs. Because of the interference by R2, I'm thinking BR is still awarded 1B and credited with a hit.

I recall a play I had last season w/ R1 on third, R2 on second and 2 outs. Batter hits a routine grounder to F6 who fields it cleanly. Had he simply thrown to 1B, the BR would have been retired easily [assuming no muff by F3]. But R2 ran very close to F6, but not past him. For some reason, F6 then decided to take the "easy out" right in front of him by tagging R2. But R2 had baited him and headed back to second base. There was a resulting rundown and R2 was eventually tagged out, but long after R1 had crossed home. So score that run. BR did reach 1B because of the rundown.

Can the same logic be applied to our OP with 2 outs?

If this is such a great play, why don't we ever see it? How has ASA covered their collective bases on this one?

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

As a creative former player/coach, I'm now even considering if the run would score had there been two outs. Because of the interference by R2, I'm thinking BR is still awarded 1B and credited with a hit.

I recall a play I had last season w/ R1 on third, R2 on second and 2 outs. Batter hits a routine grounder to F6 who fields it cleanly. Had he simply thrown to 1B, the BR would have been retired easily [assuming no muff by F3]. But R2 ran very close to F6, but not past him. For some reason, F6 then decided to take the "easy out" right in front of him by tagging R2. But R2 had baited him and headed back to second base. There was a resulting rundown and R2 was eventually tagged out, but long after R1 had crossed home. So score that run. BR did reach 1B because of the rundown.

Can the same logic be applied to our OP with 2 outs?

No, because in all rule codes (NFHS, ASA, NCAA) of a routine (fair) fly, both the runner and batter are out, or in the case of 2 out, the batter has finished her turn at bat but did not reach first, and no run can score if the BR does not reach first.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

No, because in all rule codes (NFHS, ASA, NCAA) of a routine (fair) fly, both the runner and batter are out, or in the case of 2 out, the batter has finished her turn at bat but did not reach first, and no run can score if the BR does not reach first.

No run shall be scored if the THIRD out of the inning is the result of....

A batter runner being called out prior to reaching first base.

This was not the third out but the fourth out in the scenario where there was 2 outs. The third out was the interference.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by rwest

No run shall be scored if the THIRD out of the inning is the result of....

A batter runner being called out prior to reaching first base.

This was not the third out but the fourth out in the scenario where there was 2 outs. The third out was the interference.

Suppose we don't have the runner at third (so not as to ask about run scoring). Who will lead off the next inning? Not the BR, because that at bat is finished, over, kaput, ended, "all" (Central PA phrasing). Therefore the BR did not reach first base, and therefore no runs can score.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Suppose we don't have the runner at third (so not as to ask about run scoring). Who will lead off the next inning? Not the BR, because that at bat is finished, over, kaput, ended, "all" (Central PA phrasing). Therefore the BR did not reach first base, and therefore no runs can score.

OK, suppose there is not runner at third. If there is INT by [now] R1 on the SS, that is the third out, and, yes, I believe BR is awarded 1B and credited with a hit.

Unless there's a rule reference I can check once I have my book in front of me...

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

OK, suppose there is not runner at third. If there is INT by [now] R1 on the SS, that is the third out, and, yes, I believe BR is awarded 1B and credited with a hit.

Unless there's a rule reference I can check once I have my book in front of me...

If the BR is credited with a hit, then I can see the batters at bat coming to a completion.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

OK, suppose there is not runner at third. If there is INT by [now] R1 on the SS, that is the third out, and, yes, I believe BR is awarded 1B and credited with a hit.

Unless there's a rule reference I can check once I have my book in front of me...

Not if it is a fly ball, both would be out, being if the ball is fair (in ASA, if the ball is fair or foul). On a ground ball, yes, the BR is credited with a Fielder's choice in ASA, FC or hit in NCAA (but I really don't care, I don't score). However, the OP would not happen on a grounder, unless a) the runner was stealing and b) the ball was a slow roller.

Therefore, in the OP, if no outs, it seems the run would score (would need to be a sky high pop up) and a runner leaving way early. With one or two outs, there is no issue.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Suppose we don't have the runner at third (so not as to ask about run scoring). Who will lead off the next inning? Not the BR, because that at bat is finished, over, kaput, ended, "all" (Central PA phrasing). Therefore the BR did not reach first base, and therefore no runs can score.

I would love to be able to use the logic you have purposed. However, there's no support for it in the rule book. The third out was not the batter-runner. And I don't believe you are correct about who will bat next inning. There is no justification for a fourth out here. The third out ended the inning. That was the interference. The batter-runner's at bat never ended because she was never put out. You can't get 4 outs in an inning except on missing or leaving a base early and then only when it applies to a runner who scored.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by rwest

...And I don't believe you are correct about who will bat next inning. There is no justification for a fourth out here. The third out ended the inning. That was the interference. The batter-runner's at bat never ended because she was never put out.

The at-bat is completed because the batter became a BR. Doesn't matter what happens after that on the play, she is not batting again. She put the ball in play, and that play resulted in the 3rd out. Her at bat is done.

Originally Posted by rwest

...and then only when it applies to a runner who scored.

That quirky ruling only applies to ASA.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Suppose we don't have the runner at third (so not as to ask about run scoring). Who will lead off the next inning? Not the BR, because that at bat is finished, over, kaput, ended, "all" (Central PA phrasing). Therefore the BR did not reach first base, and therefore no runs can score.

I think this is more than Central PA phrasing........but the rule specifically notes the BR or another runner forced being retired for the 3rd out of the inning. Nowhere does it state that the BR not reaching 1B safely nullifies a run not even in RS #43.

However, many of you may be confused by a previous interpretation that when the defense executes two outs with two outs already in the book, that the defense could basically elect which out would be the third out for the purpose of nullifying a run. This was the same time when a fourth out appeal could be executed on a BR/R who did not score to nullify a run. Remember, though, these were interpretations, not necessarily black and white rules. Well, except for the fourth out appeal thingy.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I think this is more than Central PA phrasing........but the rule specifically notes the BR or another runner forced being retired for the 3rd out of the inning. Nowhere does it state that the BR not reaching 1B safely nullifies a run not even in RS #43.

However, many of you may be confused by a previous interpretation that when the defense executes two outs with two outs already in the book, that the defense could basically elect which out would be the third out for the purpose of nullifying a run. This was the same time when a fourth out appeal could be executed on a BR/R who did not score to nullify a run. Remember, though, these were interpretations, not necessarily black and white rules. Well, except for the fourth out appeal thingy.

So, what is your ruling? Would the run count if there were two outs in the book?

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

As a creative former player/coach, I'm now even considering if the run would score had there been two outs. Because of the interference by R2, I'm thinking BR is still awarded 1B and credited with a hit.

I recall a play I had last season w/ R1 on third, R2 on second and 2 outs. Batter hits a routine grounder to F6 who fields it cleanly. Had he simply thrown to 1B, the BR would have been retired easily [assuming no muff by F3]. But R2 ran very close to F6, but not past him. For some reason, F6 then decided to take the "easy out" right in front of him by tagging R2. But R2 had baited him and headed back to second base. There was a resulting rundown and R2 was eventually tagged out, but long after R1 had crossed home. So score that run. BR did reach 1B because of the rundown.

Can the same logic be applied to our OP with 2 outs?

If this is such a great play, why don't we ever see it? How has ASA covered their collective bases on this one?

The run might score, however, I don't believe BR would be credited with a hit. Upon calling interference we have the third out of the inning, so how can BR be credited with a hit? The run scores because it occurred before
the interference. Not sure how the BR can cause a run to score and not be credited with a hit or a sacrifice. Don't know how to record this in the stats. All that being said, the third out of the inning is not a force, so maybe the run does count. There is no fourth out appeal here to negate the run scored, because there is no appeal to be made.

So it appears that the only way the run would not score is when there is 1 out. Rule 10 doesn't apply because we have not made a reversal of a umpires decision nor did we make a delayed call that put the offense or defense in jeopardy.

Seems like there is a hole in the rules here.