Can fielders do this? 2 situations

[Tap]

Speaking ASA SP.

1. I just recalled that, about 10 years ago when I played OF, with a runner on 1B and less than 2 outs, the batter hit a ball to me that I knew I could not catch on the fly. I screamed "I got it" and acted as though I was going to catch it on the fly. The runner from 1B hesitated and I short-hopped the ball and almost threw him out at 2B for a force. After the inning, the umpire told me he would eject me if I tried that again, but he did not explain why he had a problem with what I did. I was not an umpire then, but I thought he was wrong. Is there anything illegal about this? I guess technically it could be verbal obstruction or unsportsmanlike conduct. How many umpires would call this?

2. Secondly, how about a first baseman acting as a cut-off with a throw coming from the OF on a base hit, with a runner trying to score from second. If the first baseman lets the throw go home, but acts as though he caught it and maybe even fakes a throw to second to keep the batter-runner from advancing past first, is there anything illegal there? I don't think that would be obstruction. Anyone disagree?

Just trying to anticipate these situations if any players try it when I'm calling. And I also play some and play 1B, so I'm most interested in that scenario.

[greymule]

There's nothing illegal about either play in ASA. There is a Fed rule (I think) about yelling "I got it" if it's an obvious decoy, so maybe you saw some umps who do Fed calling it in ASA.

On a related subject, when I played baseball, players didn't like it when a shortstop faked a tag to make the runner go down for no reason, such as on a foul ball. However, on a hit behind the runner that went through to right field, a fake tag was not considered a dirty play, since if the runner slid, he would be delayed and might not get to 3B. Because there was a strategic reason for the fake tag, we felt it was OK. It was the runner's job to pay attention or watch the coach to find out what's going on. But in fact, I never saw a single runner fooled by a fake tag.

Fed and ASA prohibit the fake tag under any circumstances. According to BRD, NCAA and OBR have no provisions. However, I suspect that players would not appreciate a purely malicious fake tag, one with no strategic purpose.

I think prohibiting "verbal obstruction" is opening a can of worms. Can you imagine a Major League player complaining to the umpire that an outfielder yelled "I got it" when he couldn't have caught it? What's next, no fake handoffs in football?

Incidentally, in the play you described, you yelled, "I got it." Who says that necessarily implies "on the fly"? And you say you short-hopped the ball. If you were close enough to short-hop it, how could that ump have been sure it was a decoy, anyway?

[Tap]

On #1, I think I also used my arms to wave off another OF. As for me stating that I short-hopped it, I may have misstated it a bit. It was sharply hit and I fielded it on one bounce, but there was no way I had a shot at it even if I dove (which I would have done back then). The fact that the umpire did not tell me why it was a problem with him led me to believe that there was nothing in the rule book prohibiting it and that he may have been implying it was somehow unsportsmanlike.

[bluezebra]

There is nothing unsportsmanlike for an OF to holler, "I've got it". The runners should be looking at the ball, and/or listening to the base coaches.

Bob

[lildani14]

On play #1 calling the ball is vital. I collided with my CF this last fall because we didn't talk. So there is nothing wrong with calling any ball. In the air or on the ground.

On play #2 its a judgement call. if the fake throw caused the runner to double take you could call obstruction in my view. the runner shouldn't be watching the players though.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Tap
Speaking ASA SP.

1. I just recalled that, about 10 years ago when I played OF, with a runner on 1B and less than 2 outs, the batter hit a ball to me that I knew I could not catch on the fly. I screamed "I got it" and acted as though I was going to catch it on the fly. The runner from 1B hesitated and I short-hopped the ball and almost threw him out at 2B for a force. After the inning, the umpire told me he would eject me if I tried that again, but he did not explain why he had a problem with what I did. I was not an umpire then, but I thought he was wrong. Is there anything illegal about this? I guess technically it could be verbal obstruction or unsportsmanlike conduct. How many umpires would call this?

2. Secondly, how about a first baseman acting as a cut-off with a throw coming from the OF on a base hit, with a runner trying to score from second. If the first baseman lets the throw go home, but acts as though he caught it and maybe even fakes a throw to second to keep the batter-runner from advancing past first, is there anything illegal there? I don't think that would be obstruction. Anyone disagree?

Just trying to anticipate these situations if any players try it when I'm calling. And I also play some and play 1B, so I'm most interested in that scenario.

You're golden on both plays. No obstruction or unsportsmanlike in either action.

[greymule]

Since when would a fake throw, with or without the ball, ever be considered obstruction or USC of any kind? How about the ground ball to F5 with a runner on 3B, where F5 fakes a throw to 1B in the hopes that the runner will break for home and be put out?

Where did this mindset come from that you can't do anything that might deceive anybody on a ball field? Fed?

[Edited by greymule on Jan 12th, 2003 at 05:37 PM]

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by lildani14

On play #2 its a judgement call. if the fake throw caused the runner to double take you could call obstruction in my view. the runner shouldn't be watching the players though.

Dani,

Don't believe that this call would ever be made. A fake *tag*
yes, but not a fake throw. You see that all the time.


glen

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump

Dani,

Don't believe that this call would ever be made. A fake *tag*
yes, but not a fake throw. You see that all the time.


glen

I've had a couple incarnations of one that I've called a couple of times over the past dozen years.

This was one of those plays:

(SP) R1 on 1B, less than two outs. Ground ball behind R1 near the 1B line. Runner chugging for 2B as F6 came across the ball as if receiving and relaying the ball to 1B for a double play. R1 dutifully "got down" to avoid being hit with the ball covering his head.

The only problem was the ball was still being chased down by the rightfielder. BR rounded 1B, but stopped and returned to the bag after seeing R1 laying on the ground.

I threw out the left arm and waited for the ball to return to the IF. Called time, placed R1 on 3B and the BR on 2B.

I wouldn't have had a problem if F6 just came across the bag, but the simulated throw to 1B caused a player to unnecessarily slide. On a fake tag, that would almost always call for an ejection.

After the player told me he had done that "thousands" of times, I told him one more would be his last opportunity.

[greymule]

Can't agree with you on that one, IrishMafia. ASA prohibits a fake tag, but to me a fake throw or a fake covering of the bag is quite different. The runner should keep his eyes open.

Remember the reason for the fake tag rule. A fake tag can cause instant confusion in a runner whose judgment told him he wouldn't have to slide. R1 rounds 2B and heads to 3B on a hit to right. His judgment, his instinct, told him there would be no play at 3B, so he's running as if he won't have to slide. At the last instant, F5 does the fake tag act and causes R1 to make an unexpected change at the last instant, risking injury. The fake covering of the bag and the fake throw don't have the same dangerous effect on the runner.

How about the play at 3B where F5 stands still behind the bag with arms folded as if there's no throw coming and at the last instant catches the ball and makes the tag? I guess that's the fake non-tag. Don't remind Fed of that play—they'll ban that, too.

I admit that softball these days has to have some rules that protect players who do not have natural baseball instincts.

[WestMichBlue]

Fed rules, whether for softball or football or volleyball are for HS (and MS) students and are, by necessity, safety driven. In fact, all youth league rules (ASA,LL) have "sanitized" major league rules to make the game safer for kids. That's why the runner can't put the catcher in the 3rd row of the bleachers, or Rocket footballers play by weight class, or LL pitchers are limited to 3 innings a game.

Interesting, safety rules are going up. I don't believe that adult SP runners can put the catcher in the 3rd row anymore; hockey players are wearing helmets, and the NFL is changing rules to protect quarterbacks (much to the dismay of old guard defensive linemen)!

You are correct that the fake tag is a safety issue. FED considers it both an obstruction (preventing a runner from advancing), and misconduct (a safety violation). After a bench warning, the next player faking a tag is getting splinters in her butt the rest of the day.

WMB

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by greymule
Can't agree with you on that one, IrishMafia. ASA prohibits a fake tag, but to me a fake throw or a fake covering of the bag is quite different. The runner should keep his eyes open.

Remember the reason for the fake tag rule. A fake tag can cause instant confusion in a runner whose judgment told him he wouldn't have to slide. R1 rounds 2B and heads to 3B on a hit to right. His judgment, his instinct, told him there would be no play at 3B, so he's running as if he won't have to slide. At the last instant, F5 does the fake tag act and causes R1 to make an unexpected change at the last instant, risking injury. The fake covering of the bag and the fake throw don't have the same dangerous effect on the runner.

How about the play at 3B where F5 stands still behind the bag with arms folded as if there's no throw coming and at the last instant catches the ball and makes the tag? I guess that's the fake non-tag. Don't remind Fed of that play—they'll ban that, too.

I admit that softball these days has to have some rules that protect players who do not have natural baseball instincts.

Speaking ASA

There is no such thing as a fake tag rule. The rule is obstruction and the event which I described meets the requirements of the rule. What you offered is apples compared to the oranges of the scenario I offered.

And if you think a runner who slides because he sees a fielder stepping toward him emulating a throw isn't dangerous, maybe you should give it a try sometime. These are professional players and every slide, even by experienced players is potentionally dangerous.

Like I said, the fact alone that F6 crossed the runner's path and caused the runner to slow down is enough for obstruction. BTW, nowhere in the rule book does it state that a "fake tag" must emulate what we know as a tag.


If you don't want to call it, that's fine, but I would be very wary of litigation should someone get injured on a similar play.

[greymule]

ASA includes "fake tag" in its definitions and its index and devotes POE #19 to it, so I think it's fair to say there is a fake tag rule. Of course it is obstruction, but a special type, considered unsportsmanlike and exposing the offender to ejection.

The definition is less than enlightening (and its last sentence fractures some grammar). It doesn't say whether a fake tag includes feigning a throw or touching a base as if in possession of the ball. But they do call it fake tag, not fake play. It does say that if the runner does not slide, slow down, or stop running, there's no violation (but give a warning anyway).

POE #19 adds that obstruction is an act of a fielder in the base path. Where was that outfielder who said, "I got it"?

In my opinion, the way you call the fake tag depends on how broadly or narrowly you interpret the rule. Absent case book examples, we have to make our own judgments. I agree that if the fielder gets in the runner's way and causes him to slow down, that's obstruction. But just acting as if he has the ball on a force at 2B isn't enough for me, no matter how the runner reacts.

As far as the danger of sliding goes, a runner who knows how to slide is safer sliding on a close play than going in standing up. I slid five thousand times and never got more than a raspberry. (And with metal spikes and intent to upend infielders, too, and nobody ever got hurt.) And if every slide is potentially dangerous, then so is every potential crash because a runner didn't slide. I think the danger is especially great when a runner tries to change to a slide at the last instant—something a fake tag might well cause.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by greymule
ASA includes "fake tag" in its definitions and its index and devotes POE #19 to it, so I think it's fair to say there is a fake tag rule. Of course it is obstruction, but a special type, considered unsportsmanlike and exposing the offender to ejection.

The definition is less than enlightening (and its last sentence fractures some grammar). It doesn't say whether a fake tag includes feigning a throw or touching a base as if in possession of the ball. But they do call it fake tag, not fake play. It does say that if the runner does not slide, slow down, or stop running, there's no violation (but give a warning anyway).

POE #19 adds that obstruction is an act of a fielder in the base path. Where was that outfielder who said, "I got it"?

Coming across the base to which the runner is advancing and continuing toward the runner feigning a throw to first. I believe that would qualify.

In my opinion, the way you call the fake tag depends on how broadly or narrowly you interpret the rule. Absent case book examples, we have to make our own judgments. I agree that if the fielder gets in the runner's way and causes him to slow down, that's obstruction. But just acting as if he has the ball on a force at 2B isn't enough for me, no matter how the runner reacts.

No argument. If you look at my previous posts, I said as much when I stated that the player just coming across the bag as if receiving a throw would not have been a problem. But that's a little different than stopping on the base and feigning a throw to 1B to complete a double play. Think about what a runner does when there is a ground ball in the infield. They sprint toward 2B and the moment they see a defender come across, they slide or turn (usually to the left) to avoid taking one in the forehead. As a runner, you are not looking over your shoulder to find the ball.

As far as the danger of sliding goes, a runner who knows how to slide is safer sliding on a close play than going in standing up. I slid five thousand times and never got more than a raspberry. (And with metal spikes and intent to upend infielders, too, and nobody ever got hurt.) And if every slide is potentially dangerous, then so is every potential crash because a runner didn't slide. I think the danger is especially great when a runner tries to change to a slide at the last instant—something a fake tag might well cause.

I use to always slide because I could without sustaining injury. However, have you seen the people out there playing softball lately? Even the older travel ball players don't have a clue. During the Olympics, they had one of the players do a short on sliding. I damn near choked when that player said that when you go into a slide, fold your back leg under the other and slide into the base on the bent leg. And this was an Olympian? The method she described qualifies for two things: A great set-up for a pop-up slide and a damn good way to screw up a knee! Last time I checked, first contact on a feet-first slide should be the upper thigh/rump area, then bring the legs down. This avoids major injuries to the ankles, knees and even hips.

[WestMichBlue]

IÂ’ll defer to your ASA rules knowledge, but as a former coach I suggest that you stick to umpiring (VBG). The proper sliding technique taught to girls is (1) raise hands to throw shoulders and weight back, (2) tuck ankle behind opposite knee, and (3) sit down. The initial contact is on the side of the bent leg and the buttocks. If the girl doesnÂ’t jump into the slide, but sits down with weight back then her foot on the extended leg will be off the ground. When we drill girls we asked that they imagine a class of water (wine) in each hand and warn them that they can not spill a drop! Makes them focus on keeping those hands up and shoulders back.

Surely youÂ’ve noticed that girls wear a sliding pad that pulls up over the knee (on the leg that bends). (Even in cool weather when they are wearing long pants.) That protects the calf/knee area and the buttocks are protected by Lycra sliding shorts. The Lycra forms to the skin and wonÂ’t bunch up like uniform pants or shorts will. Fabric bunching is the major cause of bruises.

Now letÂ’s get another interference argument going!

WMB