Leap, Crow Hop vs replant

[JefferMC]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I agree with the explanation, but I can guarantee you that if a coach rightfully requests whether the IP was a "crow hop" or "leap", you need to discern one from the other. That it "matters not" isn't going to go far and may be quite detrimental.

Okay, I'll give you that if the coach asks using those terms, then it is best to reply using those terms. However, if the question is "what did she do wrong," I'm not going to be the first to set foot down that road.

I think you really underestimate some coaches and their willingness to at least try and learn. And what makes you think these publications are not available to coaches? All three publications umpires receive are available on-line to members.

Granted, there are the coaches that know what "B" and "C" position are and when you're supposed to be there. However, when I said "not even really SUPPOSED to have read," I didn't mean to imply that he shouldn't have it available if he wants it. Instead I was simply trying to say that he's part of the intended audience for the rule book, but not necessarily the other two.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by JefferMC

Okay, I'll give you that if the coach asks using those terms, then it is best to reply using those terms. However, if the question is "what did she do wrong," I'm not going to be the first to set foot down that road.

So how do you respond to the "what did she do wrong"? Do you just say "she was illegal"? I sure that ends well.
Whenever you call a violation, you must be ready to explain why you called it.

We make this more difficult that it should be. Why can't you say "coach, I have her leaping" or "coach, she stepped in front of the pitcher's plate before she started to pitch" or "she stepped back/wasn't in contact with the pitcher's plate (for ASA)." Pretty simple for Fed and ASA (yes, I'm sidestepping the NCAA version). This also works in the reverse, when you have a coach complaining about a legal pitcher.

One note about ASA and the crow hop/replant (I'm surprise Mike didn't chime in with this). To be legal for ASA, you must 1) begin your pitch with a foot on the pitcher's plate and 2) not have both feet airborn (higher than the level of the ground). In Feb at the UIC clinic, it was make explicit that ASA does not have a "replant" rule (akin to NCAA).

Granted, there are the coaches that know what "B" and "C" position are and when you're supposed to be there. However, when I said "not even really SUPPOSED to have read," I didn't mean to imply that he shouldn't have it available if he wants it. Instead I was simply trying to say that he's part of the intended audience for the rule book, but not necessarily the other two.

Ok, I'm going to hijack this thread. We had a big discussion about proper terminology, so I am going to request in what softball mechanic book (limited to the big three) that describe starting positions for the BU as "A" "B" "C" and so forth.
(I guess I could be like "pee-CAN"Steve and say that "reeks of baseball" but I've had my coffee this morning )

[CecilOne]

S/he leaped.
S/he pushed off from off the plate.

Isn't that all there is (besides hands, 24" lane, etc.)?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

One note about ASA and the crow hop/replant (I'm surprise Mike didn't chime in with this). To be legal for ASA, you must 1) begin your pitch with a foot on the pitcher's plate and 2) not have both feet airborn (higher than the level of the ground). In Feb at the UIC clinic, it was make explicit that ASA does not have a "replant" rule (akin to NCAA).

That is true, it is not a "replant" rule. I' sure to the chagrin of others, ASA uses the terms leap and crow hop as a matter of giving the coach a familiar reference. The leap is quite definitive, but "crow hop" is not.

I believe the term "replant" isn't used is because the term crow hop is used for any act where the pivot foot plant immediately prior to the delivery is not in contact with the pitcher's plate. Some pitchers do not replant, but slide forward off the PP prior to beginning the pitch and the term crow hop eliminates the argument that it wasn't a replant. Yeah, I know it is still in IP, but you also know how coaches can be

(I guess I could be like "pee-CAN"Steve and say that "reeks of baseball" but I've had my coffee this morning )

I can tell you that a pee-can is something you keep in the duck blind. A pi-ˈkän is the hickory from which the nut comes.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

That is true, it is not a "replant" rule. I' sure to the chagrin of others, ASA uses the terms leap and crow hop as a matter of giving the coach a familiar reference. The leap is quite definitive, but "crow hop" is not.

I believe the term "replant" isn't used is because the term crow hop is used for any act where the pivot foot plant immediately prior to the delivery is not in contact with the pitcher's plate. Some pitchers do not replant, but slide forward off the PP prior to beginning the pitch and the term crow hop eliminates the argument that it wasn't a replant. Yeah, I know it is still in IP, but you also know how coaches can be

Mike, you might have missed my point (I'm thinking). What I took away from OKC was that once you have started your pitch (separating hands) and dragged away, that's a legal pitch; that is is not possible to "crow-drag" if it were, because ASA does not have that in their rule set. This was explicitly brought into the discussion to show a distinction from the NCAA definition of legal pitching (where one can be illegal by replanting after a legal drag).

Is the crow hop a bad term? Yes, because "hop" can be confused with leap. The crow hop then is "replanting" in front of the pitcher's plate before you begin the pitch (the the NFHS uses the word "replant" in what a crow hop is). So are we saying the same thing?

A crow hop is a replant, but (by NCAA definition) not all replants are crow hops. And there is some thought of removing the word crow hop from the NCAA book (not as a rule change, but editorial change).

Now, if you want to talk "leaping" . . . we can examine how the different codes define leaping.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

...that is is not possible to "crow-drag" if it were, because ASA does not have that in their rule set. This was explicitly brought into the discussion to show a distinction from the NCAA definition of legal pitching (where one can be illegal by replanting after a legal drag). ....

ASA (2009) Rule 1 - Definitions - CROW HOP: (Fast Pitch) The act of a pitcher who steps, hops or drags off the front of the pitcher’s plate, replants the pivot foot, thereby establishing a second impetus, or starting point, pushes off from the newly established starting point and completes the delivery.

Has this changed? (I don't have a rule book newer than 2009 with me at the moment). Certainly seems to me like the "crow-drag" is illegal. ASA does explicitly require that the pitcher actually push off from the point of replanting; i.e. merely replanting is not in and of itself illegal in ASA.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Dakota

ASA (2009) Rule 1 - Definitions - CROW HOP: (Fast Pitch) The act of a pitcher who steps, hops or drags off the front of the pitcher’s plate, replants the pivot foot, thereby establishing a second impetus, or starting point, pushes off from the newly established starting point and completes the delivery.

Has this changed? (I don't have a rule book newer than 2009 with me at the moment). Certainly seems to me like the "crow-drag" is illegal. ASA does explicitly require that the pitcher actually push off from the point of replanting; i.e. merely replanting is not in and of itself illegal in ASA.

My understanding is what the NCAA is concerned as a replant doesn't not pertain to ASA. It was a discussion with one of the pictures. That's why I'm asking Mike to verify for me, or maybe the 3.2% had gotten to me.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

...or maybe the 3.2% had gotten to me.

3.2 huh?... as a Brit once told me... the problem with American beer is avoiding drowning...

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Mike, you might have missed my point (I'm thinking). What I took away from OKC was that once you have started your pitch (separating hands) and dragged away, that's a legal pitch; that is is not possible to "crow-drag" if it were, because ASA does not have that in their rule set. This was explicitly brought into the discussion to show a distinction from the NCAA definition of legal pitching (where one can be illegal by replanting after a legal drag).

Is the crow hop a bad term? Yes, because "hop" can be confused with leap. The crow hop then is "replanting" in front of the pitcher's plate before you begin the pitch (the the NFHS uses the word "replant" in what a crow hop is). So are we saying the same thing?

A crow hop is a replant, but (by NCAA definition) not all replants are crow hops. And there is some thought of removing the word crow hop from the NCAA book (not as a rule change, but editorial change).

I agree and pretty much stated so. I was just adding other points that have been discussed. A leap is not a crow hop. A crow hop COULD occur on the back end of a leap, but the IP should already have been observed with the leap. The two terms are a matter of convenience to communiate and are understood by most coaches.

BTW, ASA does not recognize lettered positions (A, B, C, D) for umpires. I have been told that by three different members of the upper level of the NUS. It was also a reason a proposed mechanic change was not addressed because the members of the NUS were "confused" because these indicators were used in the description. Just saying...

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

ASA does not recognize lettered positions (A, B, C, D) for umpires.

Yet local and state level clinicians use them habitually. Just curious - exactly what terms are used at NUS for these 4 positions?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Yet local and state level clinicians use them habitually. Just curious - exactly what terms are used at NUS for these 4 positions?

1BL, behind 2B, behind SS, 3BL

....more or less.

I was told they just refer to the position the umpire should be in for a particular scenario.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

...
I can tell you that a pee-can is something you keep in the duck blind. A pi-ˈkän is the hickory from which the nut comes.

Hard as it may be for you to accept, correct pronunciation is not exclusively defined by the Central Atlantic Seaboard.

pe·can
noun \pi-ˈkän, -ˈkan; ˈpē-ˌkan\

[ronald]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

,Ok, I'm going to hijack this thread. We had a big discussion about proper terminology, so I am going to request in what softball mechanic book (limited to the big three) that describe starting positions for the BU as "A" "B" "C" and so forth.
(I guess I could be like "pee-CAN"Steve and say that "reeks of baseball" but I've had my coffee this morning )

Could someone pull out there 83-85 rule books? My memory thinks it used to be in there?