Why is the leap illegal?

[Dakota]

FP, of course. Serious question. Why is the leap (without a second push) illegal? What harm does it do to the offense if the pitcher is allowed to lose contact with the ground?

[greymule]

All I can think of is that it's somewhat deceptive. It certainly doesn't allow the pitcher to get anything extra on the ball.

[Steve M]

The leap brings the pitcher closer - as much as 5% - without losing that much in speed. So it effectively increases the speed of the pitch.

Steve M

[Del-Blue]

Steve,

But a pitcher with a good legal drag, can get as far off the PP as a pitcher that leaps,at least pretty close to it anyway.

[whiskers_ump]

I think that Cat O gets as far out as anyone, but as
Mike has pointed out, a lot of the times, she is not
legal. I called some of her games in HS, and it was
worese then.

glen

[IRISHMAFIA]

I had a Div II pitching coach once explain it to me in terms of physics (of which I am not familiar). Something about the arm moving forward and the ball being release at the same time as an abrupt stop caused by the lead foot hitting the ground.

I think it is obvious that an airborne pitcher is probably moving forward at a quicker pace than one dragging a foot.

Like I've said before, put the pitcher's plate at 50' and let them do anything they want including a crow hop as long as they start with one foot in contact with the pitcher's plate. They'll end up at 40'-43' by the release.

JMHO,

[bethsdad]

I think this is the first time I will disagree with Mike. ( I hope that is ok ) I think the leap up will take away a little from the pitch. Some of the pitchers energy is going up instead of towards home. BTW Glen, Did you call IP on Cat O ? Brian

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
I had a Div II pitching coach once explain it to me in terms of physics (of which I am not familiar...

Well, I am familiar with physics, and whether a leaping pitcher will be moving faster toward the batter depends on more than just one factor.

Any energy expended to launch the pitcher's body in a vertical direction is lost energy as far as speed of the pitch or moving closer to the batter is concerned. This, then, would be a net negative for the pitcher.

OTOH, friction between the pivot foot and the ground when dragging the foot is also lost energy, and a net negative. This, though, will be a small amount of energy unless the pitcher really drags the foot (as opposed to the pro forma dragging of the toe).

Landing with the stride foot prior to release will result in loss of forward energy, but that has nothing to do with whether or not the pitcher is leaping.

The optimum is probably a very small leap (to minimize lost "up vector" energy, and eliminate foot-to-ground friction). But, no umpire will call that.

The pitcher (and your Div 2 coach) probably believes greater speed is achieved by a leap, since it is hard to exert maximum forward thrust with absolutly no upward thrust.

IOW, when the pitcher gives the biggest push, some amount of leap is unavoidable unless the pitcher has near perfect body control. But, if the pitcher could exert the same amount of thrust purely in a horizontal direction, that would achieve maximum pitch speed.

Considering physics and the reality of human athletic performance, the leap probably does result in a faster pitch. But it has more to do with what physically happens to the pitcher's body at maximum drive energy than physics. IOW, the maximum drive energy results in the faster pitch, not the leap per se. And, to whatever extent the pitcher's body is moving vertically, this reduces the amount of that maximum drive energy that is delivered to the ball.

JMHA (just my humble analysis).

[BigUmpJohn]

Originally posted by Dakota
Well, I am familiar with physics, and whether a leaping pitcher will be moving faster toward the batter depends on more than just one factor.

Any energy expended to launch the pitcher's body in a vertical direction is lost energy as far as speed of the pitch or moving closer to the batter is concerned. This, then, would be a net negative for the pitcher.

OTOH, friction between the pivot foot and the ground when dragging the foot is also lost energy, and a net negative. This, though, will be a small amount of energy unless the pitcher really drags the foot (as opposed to the pro forma dragging of the toe).

Landing with the stride foot prior to release will result in loss of forward energy, but that has nothing to do with whether or not the pitcher is leaping.

The optimum is probably a very small leap (to minimize lost "up vector" energy, and eliminate foot-to-ground friction). But, no umpire will call that.

The pitcher (and your Div 2 coach) probably believes greater speed is achieved by a leap, since it is hard to exert maximum forward thrust with absolutly no upward thrust.

IOW, when the pitcher gives the biggest push, some amount of leap is unavoidable unless the pitcher has near perfect body control. But, if the pitcher could exert the same amount of thrust purely in a horizontal direction, that would achieve maximum pitch speed.

Considering physics and the reality of human athletic performance, the leap probably does result in a faster pitch. But it has more to do with what physically happens to the pitcher's body at maximum drive energy than physics. IOW, the maximum drive energy results in the faster pitch, not the leap per se. And, to whatever extent the pitcher's body is moving vertically, this reduces the amount of that maximum drive energy that is delivered to the ball.

JMHA (just my humble analysis).

Any chance we could see a possible diagram plotting the vectors, friction force, applied force, etc., or some of the formulas you used like what the possible velocity might be?

[Edited by BigUmpJohn on Dec 11th, 2003 at 01:10 PM]

[nickdangerME]

Hey, assuming the pitcher released the ball before her front foot hit the ground, wouldn't one expect the pitch to be slightly faster, because she would be thowing downhill? It can't take much height to have some effect on ballspeed, judging by the way a couple inches can change the balance of power between pitchers and hitters in baseball, no?

I would also think that most of the energy she lost by hefting the ball higher into the air would simply be transferred right back to the ball (as increased ballspeed)as she released it on her way back down.

Just my winter musings...


Nick

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by bethsdad
I think this is the first time I will disagree with Mike. ( I hope that is ok ) I think the leap up will take away a little from the pitch. Some of the pitchers energy is going up instead of towards home. BTW Glen, Did you call IP on Cat O ? Brian

You're not disagreeing with me. I just passed along some vague information I had once received on this topic.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by bethsdad
I think this is the first time I will disagree with Mike. ( I hope that is ok ) I think the leap up will take away a little from the pitch. Some of the pitchers energy is going up instead of towards home. BTW Glen, Did you call IP on Cat O ? Brian

Brian,

Yes, I did. One. For leaping. Naturally the coach
comes over and tells me "know one has ever called her
on that." Not true. As Mike noted, it is hard to de-
tect, what with her fast movement, but she will leave
the area.

glen

BTW, this was her junior year.

[mick]

Originally posted by Steve M

Steve M,
I replied to you.
... Didn't work.
mick

[email protected]

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

You're not disagreeing with me. I just passed along some vague information I had once received on this topic.

But to answer the implied question, it is certainly ok to disagree with Mike, in fact encouraged (by me). Something like the loyal opposition theory in politics.

[whiskers_ump]

Who woke Cecil up? Three replies in just a few minutes.

JFOC,

glen