Replant

[Dakota]

I'm starting to at least question what I "learned" long ago about the fastpitch pitching rules, based on a discussion on the Fed board. I admit I have not closely read the rules on this point for some time until just a couple of days ago due to the posting in the tread I just mentioned.

I'm putting this over here instead of continuing the discussion over there since the thread has degenerated into name-calling (or close to it), so a rational discussion seems unlikely. Of course, both of the protagonists in that thread are members here, too, so I'm hoping they will keep the mutual disrespect over there.

Here is the question as simply as I can put it: Speaking ASA and/or NFHS, is it possible for a pitcher to illegally replant or illegally push off away from the pitcher's plate with the pivot foot AFTER the stride foot lands?

It seems that the letter of the rule is at least ambiguous on the point, to my reading.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Speaking ASA and/or NFHS, is it possible for a pitcher to illegally replant or illegally push off away from the pitcher's plate with the pivot foot AFTER the stride foot lands?

Don't see anything ambiguous with this:

ASA 6.3.J. Pushing off with the pivot foot from a place other than the pitcher's plate is illegal.

Assuming the pitcher has yet to release the ball, yes to the replant and maybe to the push off.

Granted, as demonstrated at certain levels, it is not always called as written, but that wasn't the question.

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Here is the question as simply as I can put it: Speaking ASA and/or NFHS, is it possible for a pitcher to illegally replant or illegally push off away from the pitcher's plate with the pivot foot AFTER the stride foot lands?

Only if she on the Chinese Acrobatic team. But seriously...

I'm not sure I understand the mechanics of the delivery you're stating. Let me restate my understanding: F1 has her pivot foot on the pitching plate, steps forward with her non-pivot foot, plants the non-pivot foot, then slides or lifts and replants the pivot foot to a new point and pushes off without moving her non-pivot foot? I'm thinking it would be both illegal and not very advantageous.

With that being said, here is the FED interpretation we received from our local association this year. (My understanding is that this is base in large part on the video clips posted on the NFHS web site this year.)

If a pitcher separates her hands (thus starting the pitch) while the non-pivot is still in contact with the pitching plate, and then, as the windmill delivery is occurring, slides (i.e. does not leap) her pivot foot to a new point and pushes off from that new point as she delivers, this is not considered a crow hop. The crow hop is only called if the pivot foot has left the pitching plate and replanted at the time the hands separate.

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Don't see anything ambiguous with this:

ASA 6.3.J. Pushing off with the pivot foot from a place other than the pitcher's plate is illegal.

Well, yes it is ambiguous in the ASA book. That sentence stands alone with no parameters to identify the timing or location of a violation. Taken literally, one could call an IP when the pitchers "pushes off" from home plate to start her walk back to the circle. What would you call if the pitcher "pushed off" when the released ball is half-way to the plate.

The NFHS places that identical sentence within a paragraph which identifies legal or illegal actions prior to the stride foot landing. The NCAA book rules that after the initial push from the plate, you cannot have a second push point prior to the stride foot landing.

So in NFHS or NCAA play, it would seem that your answer is "No, it is not illegal to push after the stride foot lands." But as you noted, there is no clear answer in ASA play.

WMB

[IRISHMAFIA]

And I thought I was anal. Excuse me for not typing out the entire rule, but only the portion under discussion. However, the quoted rule specifically defines the limitations of the pivot foot during the delivery of the pitch.

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

The NFHS places that identical sentence within a paragraph which identifies legal or illegal actions prior to the stride foot landing. The NCAA book rules that after the initial push from the plate, you cannot have a second push point prior to the stride foot landing.

Does NFHS and NCAA define a STEP or are we using the Merriam-Webster definition? Now, the term "landing" can be construed in a couple of ways. Is it's meaning here refer to coming down or coming to a rest?

I have seen pitchers in HS ball take a very abbreviated "step" which was nothing more than sliding the non-pivot foot forward a few inches on the ground. I'm not getting down to see if the foot completely left the ground, but I am also not going to demand the pitcher raise her foot high enough for my convenience. AFAIC, the pitcher met the burden of the rule.

Since I don't believe there is a rule demanding the pitcher actually lift their foot a specific height or define the distance of the step, this must be completely legal in ASA as long as it is simultaneous with the "release" of the ball. To me, that would indicate the a step and then release would be illegal though it would never be called unless a pitcher was so slow it would be obvious and even then I doubt many, if any, umpires would call it.

So, to get back to the original question. In ASA, any replant not in contact with the pitcher's plate during a pitcher's delivery prior to the release of the ball to the catcher while the batter is in the proper position completely within the confines of the batter's box and prepared to hit causes an IP, don't really care where the non-pivot foot is. However, pushing off and dragging from the pitcher's plate is always going to be legal as long as the release is simultaneous with the "step".

[Dakota]

Both ASA and NFHS are ambiguous on then the pitching regulations end. NFHS 6-1-2-c says

c. the pivot foot may remain in contact with or may push off and drag away from the pitching plate prior to the front foot touching the ground, as long as the pivot foot remains in contact with the ground and within the 24-inch length. Pushing off with the pivot foot from a place other than the pitcher’s plate is illegal.

The sentence about pushing off from other than the plate is separate from where it talks about the stride foot landing, leaving some room for ambiguity.

Somewhere along the way, I was taught / learned / read / picked up / make up that the pitching delivery rules (mostly contained in ASA 6-3 and NFHS 6-1) started when the hands came together and separated again to begin the delivery and ended when the stride foot landed. I'm willing to relearn this long-standing "truth", but merely restating ASA 6-3-J in isolation from the rest of 6-3... I'm having trouble with that.

Even the term "release" cannot be interpreted in enforcing rule 6-3 as being a single instant in time (unlike its interpretation in the LBR). Otherwise, virtually every windmill pitcher on the planet is illegal. How can a "release" (ball leaves the hand) ever be simultaneous with the leap and drag (name of the style - does not imply an illegal leap) windmill "stride"? How many windmill pitchers have their stride foot land while the ball is still coming around on the windmill motion? Simultaneous means simultaneous, so if "release" is the instant the ball leaves the hand, then the step was NOT simultaneous with the release. It was BEFORE the release. Obviously, the rule does not mean that and is not intended to be interpreted that way. Unless I'm missing something else again...

So, when DO the regulations of ASA 6-3 end? If not when the stride foot lands, and if release is not an instant in time in the rule, when?

As I said before, I've somewhere along the way come to believe that the pitcher can do pretty much anything she wants (as far as pitching mechanics rules are concerned) before bringing the hands together and after the stride foot lands.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Somewhere along the way, I was taught / learned / read / picked up / make up that the pitching delivery rules (mostly contained in ASA 6-3 and NFHS 6-1) started when the hands came together and separated again to begin the delivery and ended when the stride foot landed. I'm willing to relearn this long-standing "truth", but merely restating ASA 6-3-J in isolation from the rest of 6-3... I'm having trouble with that.

To me, the delivery ends with the release. After all, at that point the pitcher no longer has anything to deliver, it's gone!

Even the term "release" cannot be interpreted in enforcing rule 6-3 as being a single instant in time (unlike its interpretation in the LBR). Otherwise, virtually every windmill pitcher on the planet is illegal. How can a "release" (ball leaves the hand) ever be simultaneous with the leap and drag (name of the style - does not imply an illegal leap) windmill "stride"?

Why do you say that? Are you now defining "landing" as the foot touching the ground as opposed to coming to a stop? I had a physics professor who was also a softball coach once explain to me the the stride foot coming down to a stop helped with the speed at which the ball was released. Not a physics person, so I take him for his word.

Besides, what you can see on an slow motion replay and what an umpire sees
with the naked eye are two different pictures. You don't make judgments base on what you know may be assumed or what was seen the previous night on TV. You make them at real time watching the pitcher live without the benefit of replay.

How many windmill pitchers have their stride foot land while the ball is still coming around on the windmill motion? Simultaneous means simultaneous, so if "release" is the instant the ball leaves the hand, then the step was NOT simultaneous with the release. It was BEFORE the release. Obviously, the rule does not mean that and is not intended to be interpreted that way. Unless I'm missing something else again...

Again, you need to define "landing". If using it to means coming to a rest or stop, then most of the pitchers to which you refer are legal (in the sense of this topic).

So, when DO the regulations of ASA 6-3 end? If not when the stride foot lands, and if release is not an instant in time in the rule, when?

I'll stick with the release. Any extraneous acts by the pitcher other than continuing their delivery motion has no bearing on the pitch.

JMHO

[JefferMC]

Today a pair of ISA umps working a particular field mentioned to my daughter that she was illegally "Replacing" her foot (one ump in the first game. Both umps in second game).

I watched her and it does look like she's picking up the pivot foot about 1/4" and then putting it back down right before she pauses with her hands together and her stride leaves the pitching plate (normally this is the point she slides her foot to repositing herself for curve balls, etc., if she slides it, there is no appearance that it comes up).

With all the crow-hops and stepping outside the 24" lane I've seen recently, I'm wondering why these two are hung up on my DD. Both said that it won't be a problem unless the other team complains.

Beyond the fact that they're not just calling the IP when it happens, and assuming her motion is as I described, what do you think? Color your opinion by ruleset, please! Thanks!

[pop300ln]

Simple Answer: Hands Separate Pitch Begins ,stride Foot Down, Finish The Pitch Driving Hip Not Illegal