anything wrong with this pitching sequence?

[shipwreck]

NCAA softball, although all rulesets are probably the same. Tell me if this is all legal. Pitcher steps on the pitching plate with hands separated. She then brings hands together waiting for the catcher to give her a sign. She then takes the sign from the catcher with her hands together and pitches the ball. A friend of mine says it is all legal since she stepped on with hands separated and at that point she could have been simulating taking the sign. His reasoning made sense altough I am wondering how long she needs to wait before bringing hands together. Dave

[RKBUmp]

Not sure of the exact NCAA wording, ASA and FED says take the signal or simulate taking the signal with the hands separated. Sounds like a whole lot of umpire judgement as to how long it takes to receive a signal.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by shipwreck

NCAA softball, although all rulesets are probably the same. Tell me if this is all legal. Pitcher steps on the pitching plate with hands separated. She then brings hands together waiting for the catcher to give her a sign. She then takes the sign from the catcher with her hands together and pitches the ball. A friend of mine says it is all legal since she stepped on with hands separated and at that point she could have been simulating taking the sign. His reasoning made sense altough I am wondering how long she needs to wait before bringing hands together. Dave

She can't wait longer than 10 seconds...

NCAA 10.16 Time Allowed Between Pitches

The pitcher must be on the pitcher's plate and the batter in the batter's box within 10 seconds after the pitcher receives the ball in preparation to pitch or after the umpire calls "Play Ball." After both the pitcher and batter are in position, the pitcher has 10 seconds to bring her hands together. The pitcher has not more than five seconds to deliver the pitch.

[shipwreck]

She was basically stepping on the PP and right then bringing her hands together and then taking the sign. My friend said that short, short time that she was on the PP before her hands came together "may" have been the time she was simulating taking the sign. Dave

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by shipwreck

She was basically stepping on the PP and right then bringing her hands together and then taking the sign. My friend said that short, short time that she was on the PP before her hands came together "may" have been the time she was simulating taking the sign. Dave

And I wouldn't disagree with your friend.

Kind of like judgeing "immediatly" in the look back rule.... Judgement.

As far as I'm concerned if I can judge the stepping on the plate and the bringing of the hands together as two seperate acts, no problem.

[shipwreck]

So let me get this right. Simulating taking the sign can mean almost anything? The pitcher can be looking up at the clouds, eyes closed, anything? When this pitcher stepped on the PP with hands separated, the catcher was looking over to the dugout getting the sign from the coach. While the catcher was still doing this, the pitcher brought the hands together and waited until the catcher gave the sign. But that part doesn't matter right, since she may have already simulated taking the sign earlier? Dave

[Andy]

The purpose of the wording about taking or simulate taking the signal from the catcher is to make the pitcher pause once she steps on the pitcher's plate and prevent her from quick pitching. If there is a pause, even with her hands together, I don't have an illegal pitch.

But remember, as KJ said, in NCAA play, that once she step on the PP and brings her hands together, she only has 5 seconds to deliver the pitch.

[shipwreck]

Originally Posted by Andy

The purpose of the wording about taking or simulate taking the signal from the catcher is to make the pitcher pause once she steps on the pitcher's plate and prevent her from quick pitching. If there is a pause, even with her hands together, I don't have an illegal pitch.

But remember, as KJ said, in NCAA play, that once she step on the PP and brings her hands together, she only has 5 seconds to deliver the pitch.

Thanks for all the help. I was PU and called an illegal pitch on her. Turns out it WAS an illegal pitch, just not because of the reason I thought. While her hands were together and she was waiting for the catcher, way more than 5 seconds elapsed. Dave

[DaveASA/FED]

In ASA it's technically illegal by 6.1D which says

While on the pitcher’s plate, the pitcher shall take the signal or appear to
take a signal with the hands separated. The ball must remain in either the
glove or pitching hand.

But there is also the arguement (which I agree with) of how do I know when she really took the signal, as long as she pauses to simulate taking the signal prior to bring the hands together I would say it's ok. I would talk to the pitcher, or their coach depending on the age etc. and tell them that this can be judged as illegal it would be better to take the signal with the hands apart to remove any doubt.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by shipwreck

Thanks for all the help. I was PU and called an illegal pitch on her. Turns out it WAS an illegal pitch, just not because of the reason I thought. While her hands were together and she was waiting for the catcher, way more than 5 seconds elapsed. Dave

If this was an NCAA game, you were correct.
Most other rules are similar to NFHS - :
"Once the ball has been returned to the pitcher to prepare for the
next pitch, she has 20 seconds to release the pitch."

She has 20 seconds total - it is not divided up as to stepping on the plate, bringing the hands together and starting the pitch.

[shipwreck]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

If this was an NCAA game, you were correct.
Most other rules are similar to NFHS - :
"Once the ball has been returned to the pitcher to prepare for the
next pitch, she has 20 seconds to release the pitch."

She has 20 seconds total - it is not divided up as to stepping on the plate, bringing the hands together and starting the pitch.

Yes, as stated in the OP, it was an NCAA game. So I have illegal pitch in NCAA, not illegal in others. Dave

[Tex]

Was taught how the pitcher is to step onto the plate and simulate taking the signal at ASA national umpire school.

If the pitcher steps onto the pitching plate with hands separated and immediately brings hands together all in the same motion, that an illegal pitch is to be called.

Must be 2 separate motions separated by a pause (step - pause - bring hands together). If all in the same motion, the simulating of taking the signal with the hands separated cannot take place during the pause.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

If this was an NCAA game, you were correct.
Most other rules are similar to NFHS - :
"Once the ball has been returned to the pitcher to prepare for the
next pitch, she has 20 seconds to release the pitch."

She has 20 seconds total - it is not divided up as to stepping on the plate, bringing the hands together and starting the pitch.

NFHS 6-1-1-c does in fact require that the hands be together "not more than 10 seconds". That 10 second issue is consistent with ASA, ISF, and pretty much everyone EXCEPT NCAA (as stated by others, 5 seconds).

While the 20 second rule penalty is a ball, the 10 second violation is stil an illegal pitch.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

NFHS 6-1-1-c does in fact require that the hands be together "not more than 10 seconds". That 10 second issue is consistent with ASA, ISF, and pretty much everyone EXCEPT NCAA (as stated by others, 5 seconds).

While the 20 second rule penalty is a ball, the 10 second violation is stil an illegal pitch.

Damn .... you're correct.
I knew that!!!! but usually (if it is in fact, a factor in the game) I've been concentrating more on the batter's 10 seconds and the pitcher's 20.....
Another wake-up call.

To be honest - When I say "if it is a factor", it means that I'm usually not thinking about the timing unless the game seems to be dragging...

[topper]

Originally Posted by shipwreck

Thanks for all the help. I was PU and called an illegal pitch on her. Turns out it WAS an illegal pitch, just not because of the reason I thought. While her hands were together and she was waiting for the catcher, way more than 5 seconds elapsed. Dave

If this was NCAA, then it's a ball on the batter, not an IP for the 5 secs.