Proper Sequence

[Todd VandenAkker]

This one must be a "thinker," because no one has touched it yet. My initial reaction was that the refs did it right, thinking that the ball was not in "team control" during a free throw to be followed by a throw-in. But since the double-foul occured during the front end of a 1-and-1, the ball was in fact live and (here's the big question) therefore in Team A's control (??). By rule, team control continues until the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal, but I'm not sure if that also applies to a free-throw. At the same time, while the NF book specifies no team control during a jump ball or throw-in, it doesn't specifically mention free-throws. So, at this point, unless there is a specific exception listed in the NCAA book, that would suggest the ball should have gone back to Team A for a throw-in on the baseline without going to the arrow. I'll have to check my college book for its wording on the double-foul rule, unless someone else has it at hand and can shed additional light on the matter.

[champj]

Here's a good one I saw in a NCAA women's game. A1 is fouled by B1, Team A is in the bonus, so we are lining up for the 1 plus 1. Partner administers the ball to the thrower for the first shot of the 1 & 1, BUT before she shoots, A2 and B2 fouls each other, resulting in a double foul called. cleared the lane and allow the thrower (A1) who was fouled to finish the 1 & 1, made both; then the alternating possession was used to bring the ball back alive as a result of the double personal fouls. Was the AP the right way to go or should the "last who had control" be given the ball back; that is if Team A is considered in control once the ball was given to A1 for the first shot of a 1 & 1. Comments!!

[Alaska Ref]

They got it right! Ball was live when at the disposal of the shooter, so the fouls were not Technical in nature, but a double Technical would have ended the same with an Alternating Possession. The main thing to remember is take care of everything in the same order that they occurred.

Good Luck

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Don

[Todd VandenAkker]

Don,

Deal with the fouls in the same order as they occured, yes. But I think the question posed is whether, for NCAA, the throw-in goes to the team that had possession or "team control," as with the new double-foul rule this year, or whether you use the arrow in this situation. True, the double-fouls are personal fouls, not technicals. But that's why the question arises, since technicals are always inbounded according to the AP arrow, while double-fouls are not. As I read the Federation rule book, it sounds like the free-throw-shooting team had last possession or team control because of the ball being live during the throw. If that's true for NCAA as well, then in this college game it appears that Team A should have gotten the throw-in regardless of which direction the arrow was pointing. That's where I need my NCAA book to check on how it's worded, or to see if there's a new play listed in the Interpretations section that covers this scenario.

[DrC.]

I wish this was just a common sense ruling.
If team A has the ball when a double foul or double T occurs, make the call and give the ball back to team A since they had possession. If Team A was shooting FTs, then
call the double foul &/or T and put everybody back on the line. Wouldn't this make sense. To me, one of the dumbest rules we enforce is when say Team A has the ball, a double T occurs and if AP is going to B, A loses the ball !!!

[Todd VandenAkker]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dennis Flannery on 02-23-2000 10:00 AM
In the NCAA 1999-2000 Men's and Women's basketball officating program, that we get to start the year off, it goes over this same thing...they call it a double foul, but false double foul rules apply, GO TO THE ARROW.

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I think there's some misunderstanding of "false double foul" happening here. It is the DOUBLE FOUL that leads to the possession arrow being used, not the false double foul. Yes, it's a false double in the sense that another foul occured after the first (that is about to be shot when the next fouls happen), but the LAST foul(s) in this sequence is a double foul. That is what causes us to go with the arrow--there are no false double foul rules per se that apply with respect to the arrow.

Now, Bart, as far as lining up the shooters, I believe we never line them up if play is going to be resumed via a throw-in. And until I got to look at my NCAA manual, I was also thinking the team in "control" gets the throw-in. However, the new rule specifies that this occurs only when a double foul is called during a throw-in: "Team in possession of the ball for the throw-in when double personal foul is called shall put the ball in play from a designated spot nearest . . . ." (p. 11 under Rules Changes). That suggests to me that if a double foul occurs in any other situation, you go with the AP arrow. The monkey wrench in this interpretation comes when you read the summary for administering double fouls on page BR-94,, which adds: "Awarded to the team IN CONTROL (emphasis mine) or in possession of the ball during a throw-in." That little difference of wording from how it describes the rule change confuses me. So . . . I don't know, yet, which way is correct.

[Dennis Flannery]

In the NCAA this is a false double foul, where you got o the arrow.

[Dennis Flannery]

In the NCAA this is a false double foul, where you got to the arrow.

[Todd VandenAkker]

Again, it's not the false double foul, I believe, that makes you go to the arrow. If it was a common foul by ONE player on the free-throw lane, then you'd have a one-and-one or ball OOB by the other team. It's the double-foul part that either goes to the arrow or the team that had possession. However, now that I've had a chance to look at the NCAA wording, it says that the team in possession of the ball for a THROW-IN when a double foul occurs gets the ball back without the AP arrow being used. So, since this double-foul occurs during a free-throw, I'd say it DOES in fact go to the arrow, as Dennis and Alaska Ref said to begin with. I just needed to have the REASON for that as the basis so I would know for sure.

[Bart Tyson]

OK Todd lets talk about this. I think you shoot the 1&1 with players lined up. Double foul goes back to the offense in control. Free thrower is in control.

[Dennis Flannery]

In the NCAA 1999-2000 Men's and Women's basketball officating program, that we get to start the year off, it goes over this same thing...they call it a double foul, but false double foul rules apply, GO TO THE ARROW.

[Bart Tyson]

Dennis, They probably Don't say why do they?

[Bart Tyson]

Todd, i have received a clarification from NCAA. It isn't just on throw-in. If team A is dribbling the ball and we have Double foul: no shots, team A gets ball, no reset of shot clock. My Point was when the Player has the ball in hand for free throw it a live ball, Player control, so i thought player control means team control. Double foul, live ball, team control. Give it back to free thrower(giving it back to team in control). From what i read above there is an exception to this rule. Thats ok I just havn't seen i in writting. Can someone show me in writting?

[Todd VandenAkker]

Thanks, Bart. That's exactly what my impression was all along, and what I was stating in my earlier posts, but the question kept coming up about what the NCAA Rule book says. When I finally read it, it was unclear. Where did you get clarification from? I've been interpreting it that way all along, but got a little confused by the way the manual explained the rule change. The "summary" of double-fouls in the back of the book made more sense to me, and was consistent with what I originally thought. (But you still don't line the players up to finish the original 1-and-1) :-)

[Bart Tyson]

I went NCAA web site. Asked the ?. few days later got answer. I didn't take note who answered. I don't think they gave a name. They had a reference # for the ? i asked. the answer was short and to the ponit. they just said Team A gets ball for throwin and no reset of clock, no shots.