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Old Mon Oct 28, 2002, 08:01pm
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Talking


Lets look at this obstruction thing posted by SamC.

QUOTE SamC

"Now here's a philosophical question, on a pickoff attempt at 1st by F2, F3 obstructs the runner, by dropping to her knee in front of the bag well before the ball arrives, but in doing so, she is unable to catch the ball which ends up rolling down the 1st base line. R1 hops up and heads for 2nd, but an alert F9 chases down the ball and throws to F6 who tags R1 out on a VERY close play. So what do you do with R1?" I am saying this is strictly a pickoff attempt, R1 not thinking of stealing.

__________________________________________________ _________

As BU we see the OBS, we signal DDB, runner back, ball gets past F3. R1 races for 2B and as
stated on a VERY close play is thrown out. Under ASA Rule 8 Sec. 6.B. 1. They tell us
a runner cannot be put out between the two bases where obstructed.

--OTOH--

Rule 8 Sec. 6.B. 2. Tells us if the obstructed runner is put out passing the base
which would have been reached, in our case FIRST, had there not been obstruction,
the obstructed runner will be called out.
Ball remains live.

Could not we, in this scenario, by rule call R1 out? Without a doubt by advancing
towards 2nd she went beyond the base she would have reached had there been no OBS.
OBS occurred with R1 going back into 1B, no attempted to this point on
achieving 2B. Why give her back a base she already had and decided to giveup.

Thoughts.

glen
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Old Mon Oct 28, 2002, 09:35pm
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Cool Another raining night in TEXAS

It's now 12 straight days since last called a game because of rain and it is raining again tonight so I will gave you my ruling then let the pro's take over.

I believe per ASA it doesnt matter which way the runner is going if they are OBSTRUCTED on a play the only ways you can get that runner out between the bases they were obstructed on is if they cause interference or appealed out for missing a bag. So in your play if the obstruction had nothing to do with the runner being put out on a VERY close play at second, your only choice as a umpire is call the DEAD BALL and place the runner back on 1st.


JMO

Don
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Old Mon Oct 28, 2002, 10:01pm
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Only 12 straight days......

We are absolutely waterlogged here too............nastiest weather I ever remember for so long a stretch...............



FWIW................I agree with Don...........

A runner may not be put out between bases they were obstructed...............

When the runner is put out at 2nd..........call time.........and put her back at first (if you think she was a dead duck at 2nd)............

I don't have a case play to back this up (although I think there is one pretty close)............I gave my 2000 book to a rookie while I am waiting (and waiting and waiting) for my 2002 to come in.............

Joel
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Old Mon Oct 28, 2002, 10:45pm
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I agree that a portion of the rule states that runner cannot be put out between
the two bases that the obstruction ocurred. However, in this case though technically
she is betwix two base, [runners will always be between two bases unless they have just
crossed home plate] She is at 1st base not even considering going to 2nd
until the throw gets by F3. So now another rule comes into play. Rule 8 Sec. 6.B. 2.
Tells us if the obstructed runner is put out passing the base
which would have been reached, in our case FIRST, had there not been obstruction,
the obstructed runner will be called out. Ball remains live. I can understand
it if batter hits ball to outfield and on a close play at 2B she is thrown out after being
OBSD by F4 or if she hits a gapper, is OBSD at 2B by F6 and is tossed at the 3rd. These R's had
opportunities to advance, R1 in our case did not, she was merely trying to regain 1B, did, then
on overthrown ball tried for another base. Make sense??

glen
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Old Mon Oct 28, 2002, 11:40pm
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Cool Glen

Here you go again trying to start trouble with that make sense thing again. We have all learn sometime the rules dont make sense for certain situation but our job is to enforce how the rule has been written. On this play you have to look at it as it is not the runners fault that the offense made a error by the overthrow which gave the runner the chance to try to advance and no I dont buy into the runner has passed the bag theory on this play because the player status at the time of the obstruction was between 1st and 2nd.

Hadnt change the mind. Still believe you have a DEAD BALL on the tag and place the runner back on 1st on this play

JMO

Don
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Old Tue Oct 29, 2002, 06:52am
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Red face

Ok Glen,

I truley believe you agree with the fact she goes back to first, you IMOHO are just trying to cause trouble because you are waterlogged LOL.

Let's say without the obstruction on the pickoff at first the runner re-aquirred first with no problem, and the ball got away. The runner then takes off for second without delay, and makes it standing up.....No Problem... Now when she tries to get back to first and IS obstructed, she is trying to get to the bag doesn't see that the ball has gotten by the firstbase person. Now as she is trying to get back to the base, she is delaying her advancement to second, and is out on a close play. The fact that she was obstructed delayed her decision to advance to second, even though if not obstructed she had no intention to advance. Therefore the obstruction caused her to be put out at second, because of the delay on her advance.

Did I splain that to your satisfaction????????

High in the 40's today with late rain. Softball is over, and I might not be able to play golf!!!!!!

Bob
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Old Tue Oct 29, 2002, 08:05am
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case play

This play from the ASA case book should help:

Play 8.6-12

R1 on 2B. B2 gets a base hit. R1 after rounding 3B is obstructed by F1. At the time of the obstruction, in the umpire's judgment, R1 could not have made home. The throw was already back in the infield. R1 is returned to 3B. F2 cuts the throw and retires B2 at 2B. R1 breaks for home and is tagged out at the plate on the return throw. Ruling: At the time of the obstruction, R1 could not have made home. The ball remains alive. The out at 2B stands. With the tag of R1 at home, the ball becomes dead. Return R1 to 3B.

Before reading this case play, I would have said that once the obstruction on R1 had no more bearing, he was again liable to be put out, but the ruling establishes that R1's immunity persists throughout the entire action.

The wording above is a little misleading. "R1 is returned to 3B" makes it sound as if play has stopped and the umpire is putting R1 back on 3B. However, it means simply that R1 is entitled to 3B (not home). "The throw was already back in the infield" is also loosely attached and should have been incorporated logically into the preceding sentence. They don't hire professional editors at ASA.

Apparently, if you've been obstructed, you might as well try to reach the next base, even if you have little chance of making it and even after an intervening play. You can't be put out between the bases where you were obstructed. Whether or not the play you were out on was close doesn't matter.

Here's one for the philosphers: What if R1 takes off from 2B on a long fly and is between 3B and home when the outfielder catches the ball. As R1 tries to return to 2B, he is obstructed by F5 between 3B and home. R1 tags 3B anyway and as he is running back toward 2B to tag up, the defense throws the ball away. R1 tags up at 2B, tries to advance, and (a) is put out at 3B, or (b) is put out at home.

Can R1 now be put out between the bases where he was obstructed? How about between 2B and 3B?
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Old Tue Oct 29, 2002, 09:16am
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Re: case play

Quote:
Originally posted by greymule
Here's one for the philosphers: What if R1 takes off from 2B on a long fly and is between 3B and home when the outfielder catches the ball. As R1 tries to return to 2B, he is obstructed by F5 between 3B and home. R1 tags 3B anyway and as he is running back toward 2B to tag up, the defense throws the ball away. R1 tags up at 2B, tries to advance, and (a) is put out at 3B, or (b) is put out at home.

Can R1 now be put out between the bases where he was obstructed? How about between 2B and 3B?
Cute.

Leaving out the ordinary rulings (i.e. when did this runner advance beyond her protection), and just focusing on the "can't be put out between the bases" rule, when R1 is tagged out between 3rd and home, R1 is between the bases where the obstruction occurred, but not on the same advance - she has passed 3rd three times already.

My ruling would be she is on her own, and the out counts.

At least that is what I would probably rule on the field during live play. Would it stand up to protest? Who knows?
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Old Tue Oct 29, 2002, 12:52pm
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Re: case play

On the original play offered, the runner is automatically protected to 2B by rule, therefore, the runner cannot be called out even though the umpire believed that 1st base would be the base to which the runner was protected.

Quote:
Originally posted by greymule


Here's one for the philosphers: What if R1 takes off from 2B on a long fly and is between 3B and home when the outfielder catches the ball. As R1 tries to return to 2B, he is obstructed by F5 between 3B and home. R1 tags 3B anyway and as he is running back toward 2B to tag up, the defense throws the ball away. R1 tags up at 2B, tries to advance, and (a) is put out at 3B, or (b) is put out at home.

Can R1 now be put out between the bases where he was obstructed? How about between 2B and 3B?
By rule, the runner cannot be ruled out between 3B & HP. However, since the runner literally passed one of the bases to which they were protected and continued running to 2nd, I'm dropping the obstruction between 3B & HP. However, if the runner is tagged out prior to reaching 2B on the return, I would rule or not rule obstruction based on whether I believed the runner would have arrived at 2B safely had the obstruction not occurred.

Once the runner attained 2B safely, the play begins anew and the obstruction is dropped.

I haven't researched this, just my opinion.

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Old Tue Oct 29, 2002, 12:57pm
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I would also rule an out, under the theory that once the runner has left that area where he's protected, he can't re-enter it. However, if the runner was just barely out at home, I might rule that he would have made it but for the obstruction as he was returning to tag up.

Making the correct ruling in the case book play would certainly start an argument. Once again, an example of a rule that contradicts what seems right and fair.
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Old Tue Oct 29, 2002, 01:24pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by greymule
Once again, an example of a rule that contradicts what seems right and fair.
I'm not so sure about that. IMO, the obstruction rule for the most part is an infraction without a penalty, and so taking advantage of whatever penalty is available under the rules seems appropriate to me, even if it is only in SOME cases.

I understand the argument that automatically awarding at least one base was viewed my many as too harsh a penalty for minor obstruction, and just led to it not being called at all.

But as the rule stands, the defense can block a runner with the only result being what the runner would have gotten anyway IF the umpire sees it and IF he calls it.

This means the defense can gain a benefit if the umpire does not see/call with no penalty if he does.

This means many coaches teach obstruction as part of "good" hardnosed defense.

Furthermore, good hardnosed base runners may decide to "take out" obstructing fielders, and draw an USC against themselves - even more to gain by the defense.

Bottom line: I don't shed no tears for the defense in any obstruction call.
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Old Tue Oct 29, 2002, 04:18pm
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by whiskers_ump
[B]
Lets look at this obstruction thing posted by SamC.

QUOTE SamC

"Now here's a philosophical question, on a pickoff attempt at 1st by F2, F3 obstructs the runner, by dropping to her knee in front of the bag well before the ball arrives, but in doing so, she is unable to catch the ball which ends up rolling down the 1st base line. R1 hops up and heads for 2nd, but an alert F9 chases down the ball and throws to F6 who tags R1 out on a VERY close play. So what do you do with R1?" I am saying this is strictly a pickoff attempt, R1 not thinking of stealing.

__________________________________________________ _________

If F2 threw the ball to F3 wouldnt this be WITHEN the area of a catch and play? and if contact occus it would be neither obstruction or interference? Ball live runner going to second is out on the play.
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Old Tue Oct 29, 2002, 04:33pm
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In ASA, the fielder is not allowed to impede the progress of the runner (including blocking the base) unless the fielder has possession of the ball (or is about to receive the ball - defined as the ball being closer to the fielder than the runner) and is attempting to make a play on the runner.

A fielder anticipating a throw, or even a ball in flight, does not relieve the fielder from the obligation to not impede the runner.
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Old Tue Oct 29, 2002, 04:53pm
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So in ASA how close does the ball have to be to just about to receive a thrown ball that is thrown to them and wouldnt this rule out a anticipating throw that is thrown to them?
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Old Tue Oct 29, 2002, 05:16pm
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Very close. The fielder must have the ball, be picking up the ball, be juggling the ball. The ball must be between the runner and the fielder.

The phrase "about to the receive the ball" is somewhat misleading, because if a hard throw home is 15 feet from the catcher, he's only a split second from catching it—he is certainly "about to receive" it in literal terms. But "about to receive the ball" has a special meaning in ASA. It's defined somewhere in the POEs.
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