Drop 3rd strike mechanic

[IowaBlue]

Originally Posted by youngump

I'm afraid what's demonstrated about angles here is that you don't understand the concept of a negative number. These aren't free floating angles in space.

How in the world are they not?

Around any base or runner is an imaginary 360 degree circle. Each position that you take on the circle has an equivalent position on the opposite side.

The only thing that makes one position favorable to another on any particular play is your ability to move from that point to your next potential position for a subsequent play.

If this secondary consideration is rendered neutral either because movement from Point A to Point B is essentially the same in either scenario, or because you have a partner ahead of you to help out at Point B, then it doesn't matter which of the primary positions that you chose to assume.

Maybe if you'd slow down and actually try and talk with Mike instead of trying to demean him you could express your concerns

I began by having a civil discussion with him over different ideas presented from two national softball organizations, and instead of taking a purely intellectual approach he resorted to inferring that I was lazy, out of shape, and that by daring to question the almighty ASA manual with some new ideas that I should just take my ball and go home.

Maybe if he was better able to defend his positions (literally and metaphorically) without subtle insinuations then we could all have a more civil discourse on this board.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IowaBlue

How in the world are they not?

Around any base or runner is an imaginary 360 degree circle. Each position that you take on the circle has an equivalent position on the opposite side.

The only thing that makes one position favorable to another on any particular play is your ability to move from that point to your next potential position for a subsequent play.

If this secondary consideration is rendered neutral either because movement from Point A to Point B is essentially the same in either scenario, or because you have a partner ahead of you to help out at Point B, then it doesn't matter which of the primary positions that you chose to assume.



I began by having a civil discussion with him over different ideas presented from two national softball organizations, and instead of taking a purely intellectual approach he resorted to inferring that I was lazy, out of shape, and that by daring to question the almighty ASA manual with some new ideas that I should just take my ball and go home.

Maybe if he was better able to defend his positions (literally and metaphorically) without subtle insinuations then we could all have a more civil discourse on this board.

Maybe like this will be more clear. If you're standing 10 feet toward first and toward right of 2nd base, you have a 45 degree angle 1st, to 2nd to you. And you have a 135 degree angle 3rd to 2nd to you. But if you're inside you now have a 45 degree angle for both angles. So clearly they aren't the same.

Now, as to whether Mike was civil with you or not, I wasn't paying that much attention, with no offense intended to him Mike has always seemed gruff and I'm used to it having been here for a long time. You on the other hand are new and without any general personality backlog against which we can file your outburst so it comes across as much more harsh at the instant moment. This is why it's often best to tread carefully when joining a message board.

To my point that your geometry left something to be desired. You replied with "how in the world not". That may just be your personality, but it comes across as attacking because of a message boards tendency to harshen words and my lack of familiarity with you. This is a great place to learn a lot but you won't do it by trying to make the board more confrontational.
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[IowaBlue]

Originally Posted by youngump

Maybe like this will be more clear. If you're standing 10 feet toward first and toward right of 2nd base, you have a 45 degree angle 1st, to 2nd to you. And you have a 135 degree angle 3rd to 2nd to you. But if you're inside you now have a 45 degree angle for both angles. So clearly they aren't the same.

The relationship between two different bases vis a vis your position is not relevant. You are only concerned with your angle in reference to one particular runner or base, and in this instance they would both be exactly the same.

Once you start adding additional factors like another base, this would obviously change your preferred position based on what subsequent action you might have to take on a secondary play. Where your partner is at and what responsibilities he/she might have is also of great concern.

Of course I already stated this, but it's worth repeating for clarity's sake.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IowaBlue

The relationship between two different bases vis a vis your position is not relevant. You are only concerned with your angle in reference to one particular runner or base, and in this instance they would both be exactly the same.

Once you start adding additional factors like another base, this would obviously change your preferred position based on what subsequent action you might have to take on a secondary play. Where your partner is at and what responsibilities he/she might have is also of great concern.

Of course I already stated this, but it's worth repeating for clarity's sake.

This simply isn't the case because there are all sorts of anchoring factors. The direction of the throw for example. Now I'm not commenting on the specific play as I don't really have much there. But suppose it were a steal. Do you really think 45 inside is as good a position as 45 outside?
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[IowaBlue]

Originally Posted by youngump

This simply isn't the case because there are all sorts of anchoring factors. The direction of the throw for example. Now I'm not commenting on the specific play as I don't really have much there. But suppose it were a steal. Do you really think 45 inside is as good a position as 45 outside?

The correct answer is neither. You don't want a 45 degree angle on a steal play, you want 90 degrees with the runner's path to the bag, at the point that the runner and the bag intersect, or to the runner's path at the time a fielder is attempting a tag. And in that case, yes, either inside or outside position will suffice.

Let me give you an example that incorporates many of the ideas involved with this thread, and it is particularly appropriate as I believe it is a "difficult" mechanic that ASA actually endorses:

You are the base umpire in a 2 man system. No runners on base. The batter hits a sharp, sinking liner to RF that takes one hop and is then fielded. In nearly all levels of FP you are likely to have a potential 9-3 put-out attempt.

Now you have basically two options here. You can either attempt to get your normal 45 degree angle with 1B from fair territory, but the downside is obviously that the throw will be coming from behind you and you will lose sight of the ball.

The preferred position in this scenario would be to move to foul ground and obtain the VERY SAME 45 degree angle with 1B. This is an excellent position to see the play, and I can't recall ever missing a call from this spot.

Obviously, the major concern here is that your partner must be alert enough to diagnose the developing situation and bust out to at least the pitching rubber in order to seen a potential play at 2B.

This is an example of how what your partner can/is likely to do will impact the position that you choose on the field. Both angles involved here are IDENTICAL. Each position will have accompanying positive and negative attributes, but the ANGLE is the same, and indeed, as long as you are not hit with the throw or alter it's path, your ability to call THAT INITIAL PLAY will be exactly the same from either position.

What is different from each spot on the field is your ability to adjust and then cover another impending play. Again, if you have a reliable partner, the decision becomes obvious.

Have you ever worked 1-umpire slowpitch? With nobody on and an infield ground ball with a potential play at first, what are you going to do? You should move into fair territory and attempt to gain a 45 degree angle with first. This is EXACTLY THE SAME ANGLE as in the above two situations, only from yet ANOTHER potential position on the field. Three different positions around the same base resulting in three IDENTICAL angles.

As you can see, the only way softball can work with 1 or 2 umpires is precisely BECAUSE the angles are always there, only our position on the field, relative to our next possible responsibility, changes.

Obviously, you always need to be cognizant of how the impending play develops, how the angles change as the runner/field positions change, and how you must move accordingly in order to see all the pieces of the puzzle, so that you are never "blocked out" or screened.

Umpiring actually involves 3 dimensional space, so that sometimes you can actually use an "over the top" view to help you out in certain situations.

Hopefully all of that was clear enough.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by IowaBlue

...the pitching rubber...

i was with you up to here.

[IowaBlue]

Obviously it's best if you can get closer than that, but not everyone can get there depending on what level of ball you are working and the quality of your partner.

Either way, anywhere in that vicinity is a heck of lot better than where the base umpire is, and as someone that has had partners fail to recognize this situation as it is occurring and leaving the play at 2nd completely uncovered, really getting to anywhere and at least acting like you know what's going on is acceptable at most levels.

And really, the pitching rubber is a decent "holding zone" position in this instance. Remember, we have not yet determined that the BR is in fact going to attempt to get to 2nd, so really not a lot of reason to move all the way into the primary position at 2B if there is unlikely to be a play there. You can then adjust your distance accordingly depending on what the runner does.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IowaBlue

The correct answer is neither. You don't want a 45 degree angle on a steal play, you want 90 degrees with the runner's path to the bag, at the point that the runner and the bag intersect, or to the runner's path at the time a fielder is attempting a tag. And in that case, yes, either inside or outside position will suffice.

Let me give you an example that incorporates many of the ideas involved with this thread, and it is particularly appropriate as I believe it is a "difficult" mechanic that ASA actually endorses:

You are the base umpire in a 2 man system. No runners on base. The batter hits a sharp, sinking liner to RF that takes one hop and is then fielded. In nearly all levels of FP you are likely to have a potential 9-3 put-out attempt.

Now you have basically two options here. You can either attempt to get your normal 45 degree angle with 1B from fair territory, but the downside is obviously that the throw will be coming from behind you and you will lose sight of the ball.

The preferred position in this scenario would be to move to foul ground and obtain the VERY SAME 45 degree angle with 1B. This is an excellent position to see the play, and I can't recall ever missing a call from this spot.

Obviously, the major concern here is that your partner must be alert enough to diagnose the developing situation and bust out to at least the pitching rubber in order to seen a potential play at 2B.

This is an example of how what your partner can/is likely to do will impact the position that you choose on the field. Both angles involved here are IDENTICAL. Each position will have accompanying positive and negative attributes, but the ANGLE is the same, and indeed, as long as you are not hit with the throw or alter it's path, your ability to call THAT INITIAL PLAY will be exactly the same from either position.

What is different from each spot on the field is your ability to adjust and then cover another impending play. Again, if you have a reliable partner, the decision becomes obvious.

Have you ever worked 1-umpire slowpitch? With nobody on and an infield ground ball with a potential play at first, what are you going to do? You should move into fair territory and attempt to gain a 45 degree angle with first. This is EXACTLY THE SAME ANGLE as in the above two situations, only from yet ANOTHER potential position on the field. Three different positions around the same base resulting in three IDENTICAL angles.

As you can see, the only way softball can work with 1 or 2 umpires is precisely BECAUSE the angles are always there, only our position on the field, relative to our next possible responsibility, changes.

Obviously, you always need to be cognizant of how the impending play develops, how the angles change as the runner/field positions change, and how you must move accordingly in order to see all the pieces of the puzzle, so that you are never "blocked out" or screened.

Umpiring actually involves 3 dimensional space, so that sometimes you can actually use an "over the top" view to help you out in certain situations.

Hopefully all of that was clear enough.

I'm not sure how to make it any clearer that as a matter of geometry you are simply not right. I'm not a great umpire and I'm not going to argue mechanics as I'm just not there yet. But as far as math goes, I can tear it up. The angles are simply not the same. Let me try once more.

Your play at first is great for an example. There are 4 spots that we could call 45 degrees. Let's call them A,B,C, and D starting from the foul position past first base and working clockwise. If you are in A, you have a 90 to the throw and a 135 to the path of the runner. If you are in B, you have a 0 to the throw and a 45 to the path of the runner. If you are in C, you have a 45 to the path of the runner and a 90 to the throw. If you are in D, you have a 180 to the throw and a 135 to the path of the runner.

Now it's possible that all 4 of those by chance offer the same benefits (though as you've noted they clearly do not, having a 180 to the throw being what you noted.) You can make the case that two angles offer the same benefits but when you try and use geometry to get there you have to understand that you can't just invert your frame of reference and pretend you have the same angle.

One last attempt to explain the difference. Being in A or D you called the same angle. Now if the throw to first comes in and pulls the fielder toward foul territory you'll note that the angles change in very different ways.
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[IowaBlue]

Originally Posted by youngump

I'm not sure how to make it any clearer that as a matter of geometry you are simply not right. I'm not a great umpire and I'm not going to argue mechanics as I'm just not there yet. But as far as math goes, I can tear it up. The angles are simply not the same. Let me try once more.

Your play at first is great for an example. There are 4 spots that we could call 45 degrees. Let's call them A,B,C, and D starting from the foul position past first base and working clockwise. If you are in A, you have a 90 to the throw and a 135 to the path of the runner. If you are in B, you have a 0 to the throw and a 45 to the path of the runner. If you are in C, you have a 45 to the path of the runner and a 90 to the throw. If you are in D, you have a 180 to the throw and a 135 to the path of the runner.

Now it's possible that all 4 of those by chance offer the same benefits (though as you've noted they clearly do not, having a 180 to the throw being what you noted.) You can make the case that two angles offer the same benefits but when you try and use geometry to get there you have to understand that you can't just invert your frame of reference and pretend you have the same angle.

You are failing to grasp the simplicity of the concept being presented by introducing variables that are not relevant.

It does not matter if you are 90 degrees from the throw in most instances. That is an antiquated idea and of little value. Obviously, you need to be able to see the ball and avoid being hit by it, or a "180" as you like to call it.

On a force play at 1st, the only thing that is relevant in order to make that particular call is your angle with respect to the BASE, and nothing else. Everything that happens in that play is going to happen at the base. The entire rest of the field ceases to matter at that point. There is even a school of thought, among some VERY high level umpires (multiple Divison 1 College World Series appearances) that you don't even need to watch or pay attention to the throw anymore, just focus on the base.

And I can assure you that D in your example does not involve a 135 degree path to the runner, as that is default position on a play at 1st in every mechanics manual at every level of softball in the world, and everyone teaches that as the optimal position to take the call.

Being in A or D you called the same angle. Now if the throw to first comes in and pulls the fielder toward foul territory you'll note that the angles change in very different ways.

A pulled foot, bad throw, or swipe tag can ruin your angle on nearly any play from virtually any position on the field. There is no spot that is immune to this, where you can see everything with crystal clarity. This is why you need to be cognizant of the changing play and be prepared to adjust your angle accordingly, as the play develops.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by IowaBlue

You are the base umpire in a 2 man system. No runners on base. The batter hits a sharp, sinking liner to RF that takes one hop and is then fielded. In nearly all levels of FP you are likely to have a potential 9-3 put-out attempt.

I guess you don't work much men's fastpitch.

You aren't the first person to share this point of view, and not the first one that Mike has rebutted. This conversation has been ongoing for some time, probably started at the time the first NCAA manual was published. And it isn't going to be solved anytime soon.

Most of us who work ASA (and NFHS, since they virtually share the same mechanics book) and NCAA extensively has solved the rift by working the mechanics prescribed by the organization that is on our uniform. We realized it wasn't such a big deal, we do our job, and have a few beverages after the game. We critique each other, and strive to get better with every game.

Personally, I think there are advantages to staying outside than employing the generalized "inside/outside theory" as stated in the ASA manual (You refer to this as "rimming," but don't google that term). I also believe that being "close" on a tag play is necessary and you are not smothering the play.

But why is there differences? As Mike said, you have different philosophies and training goals with each organization. The NCAA is a "closed shop" and can demand advanced mechanics. If you don't grasp them, you don't move on (much akin to college or graduate level education). The emphasis is on thinking and reading the play and I can tell you that not all NCAA umpires grasp this concept (you don't "stay outside for the sake of staying outside). The ASA is dealing with the masses, and created mechanics for everyone (akin to teaching high school level classes where everyone can graduate). Therefore, simple generalities and easy to follow rules exist.

Like I said, most of us here in the Keystone state just don't sweat it. As someone who trains umpires by three different mechanics manuals, I stress the manual of the sponsoring organization, and I'm very careful not to editorialize during a clinic. And that's my advice to you, don't hold an organization hostage. That would almost be like putting yourself above the game.

I think we have hijacked this threat good enough, I won't even get into the flaws of the GD plate stance.

[topper]

Originally Posted by youngump

Maybe like this will be more clear. If you're standing 10 feet toward first and toward right of 2nd base, you have a 45 degree angle 1st, to 2nd to you. And you have a 135 degree angle 3rd to 2nd to you. But if you're inside you now have a 45 degree angle for both angles. So clearly they aren't the same.

Clear as mud. The wording in bold has me scratching my head.

Originally Posted by youngump

Now, as to whether Mike was civil with you or not, I wasn't paying that much attention, with no offense intended to him Mike has always seemed gruff and I'm used to it having been here for a long time. You on the other hand are new and without any general personality backlog against which we can file your outburst so it comes across as much more harsh at the instant moment. This is why it's often best to tread carefully when joining a message board.

To my point that your geometry left something to be desired. You replied with "how in the world not". That may just be your personality, but it comes across as attacking because of a message boards tendency to harshen words and my lack of familiarity with you. This is a great place to learn a lot but you won't do it by trying to make the board more confrontational.

In other words, IowaBlue, your "how in the world not", since your "new", is far more offensive to Irish's minions than his condescending tone and familiar name calling (Bubba). I think most of us could see where this thread was heading pretty early on.

FWIW, I agree with you completely and have had similar "discussions" on here. They mostly end just like this. I know there to be some very good umpires on this board that work both ASA and NCAA, but be aware that this is primarily an ASA rules/mechanics/philosophy forum. "Messaging for the masses".

[youngump]

Originally Posted by topper

Clear as mud. The wording in bold has me scratching my head.

Toward Right field I mean. ~14 feet out at 45 degrees measured counterclockwise from the line running from first to second.

And yes, when someone is new there words will be interpreted differently than when they are established. This may be suboptimal but it's still reality.

As for this being primarily an ASA board I think that's just by the questions asked. I've never heard someone given grief for asking about a different ruleset. (Unless it was baseball)
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