working with 'that' partner....

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by okla21fan

This is not about working with 'that' partner, but more about getting feedback when issues arose when working with 'that' partner.

background:
A while back I was working a college look tourney and was working with a partner from another association, so I had never met him before. When I got into the complex, dressed for my assignment 45 minutes prior to my games to 'check in', i found that my partner had not arrived yet. No big deal, it was still 'early'.

When said partner did arrive (about 15 minutes before scheduled time), there was already a group of blues gathered chatting and such. (subject was a rule interpretation for another day I guess) He immediately gave his 'two cents' about the subject really without listening to others, more or less 'interrupting' the conversations. (which I just happened to not agree with his interpretation anyway)

anyway, flash forward to just after our first pre game, and introductions and while we are waiting for the teams to take the field, he asked 'just how long have you been doing this?' While that is not an odd question, I simply answered 'this is my 21 year'. Before I could barely get out 'year', he interrupts and gives me his 'resume' in what seemed to be eternity. Still not sure why he felt the need to do so but I strayed away cause the defense looked ready, and took my position in the A slot.

Later that game, we have a situation where R1 is on 2nd, and B2 hits a ground ball to F6. F6 fields the ground ball, and throws wild to F3, and the ball ends up going into dead ball territory. I signal and call dead ball and start giving the bases awarded. I point to B2 (who is standing on 2nd) and say 'your, award is 2nd'. I then point to R1 (who is standing on 3rd) and say 'your award is home'.

'That' partner comes out of the holding area and says 'no, she stays at third''

Now this is a 'college look' and as a rule, things are a little bit more low key, so i say 'You are not awarding two bases from the point of release?'. he answers with 'No, she stays at third and I am the plate umpire'.

While i wanted to 'get it right', I did not want to waste anymore time and the offensive coach just said 'if thats what you think, she will stay at third' (after the inning, the OC said he didn't want to waste anymore time either, and that this weekend was about getting his girls at-bats anyway)

after all this, my question is. when you are working with 'that' kind of partner, what are some ideas in handling situations where you don't agree with a rule interpretation? I understand if it is Championship play, there will be UIC's on site and such to confer with, but when that is not available, what are some ideas?

I'll hang up and listen.

It is an awkward situation, but first I have to ask why YOU called the dead ball. On an over throw, doesn't PU take the ball and BU the runners?


As for the other part....

The showcase I do are usually timed and as the coach said, the main thing is to get the girls a look, batting, fielding, baserunning, etc.
So after you demonstrated the correct award and the PU puts her back at third and OM doesn't care, I'd let it go (although I would be fuming at the PU for pulling something like that and have a few words with him after the game)

Oh and then I'd come here and vent!!!!

Which sounds pretty much like what you did.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

It is an awkward situation, but first I have to ask why YOU called the dead ball. On an over throw, doesn't PU take the ball and BU the runners?

R1 on 2nd, presumably going to 3rd where PU is SUPPOSED to be and facing, wouldn't the BU have a better look down the 1st base line?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

It is an awkward situation, but first I have to ask why YOU called the dead ball. On an over throw, doesn't PU take the ball and BU the runners?

Shared responsibility. Whoever sees it, calls it. If you want to pick a nit, the throw to 1B is the BUs, PU has a responsibility taking him/her away from that side of the field.

The showcase I do are usually timed and as the coach said, the main thing is to get the girls a look, batting, fielding, baserunning, etc.
So after you demonstrated the correct award and the PU puts her back at third and OM doesn't care, I'd let it go (although I would be fuming at the PU for pulling something like that and have a few words with him after the game)

Oh and then I'd come here and vent!!!!

Which sounds pretty much like what you did.

I think the "I'm the plate umpire" comment may have set me off. Being the PU means absolutely nothing when it comes to the proper application of the rules. Now, if there are no applicable rule to be applied, then the PU takes control and makes the decisions.

Since I don't announce the base, but the award, I would have told R1, "two bases" and if the PU protested, I just may ask the coach if s/he wants to protest the game.

Yeah, I know, showcase, so I agree with the path you took here. Of course, that may be the last game with "that" partner.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Now, if there are no applicable rule to be applied, then the PU takes control and makes the decisions.

You are implying that the PU is always chief, but I don't think that is in any book. If one of us is with a newbie or one who acts newbie, we would be chief.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

You are implying that the PU is always chief, but I don't think that is in any book. If one of us is with a newbie or one who acts newbie, we would be chief.

He's referring to ASA 10-1.

[okla21fan]

Thanks for the feedback:

Because of the scheduling of this college look, the umpire rotation does not allow for a post game of any kind. The plate umpire after the game will leave the field to ungear while the base ump stays with another plate ump rotating in. The base ump will stays until the previous plate ump returns.

What I did end up doing was in between an inning, I casually mentioned to him that we 'were are team and while I disagreed with his interpretation i was not going to make an issue due to the tournament format.' I then suggested to him that it might be a good idea to brush up on dead ball territory awards when he got home that night. and left it at that.

Of course his retort was 'I have been doing this a long time and I know what I am doing'. Which I simply said 'okay' and then proceeded to take my position for the next inning.

Which brings up the 'situation' that was being discussed by the blues gathered, before the games that morning: (ASA ruleset)

1-2 count on the batter with 1 out. F1 pitches a legal pitch, but upon the release hits her hip with her pitching hand causing an 'errant' pitch (although legal) This pitch takes 1 bounce about 15 feet in front of the pitching rubber (aprox 28 feet from home plate) and continues in flight towards home plate. As the ball crosses home plate, B1 swings and misses the pitched ball. F2 catches the ball 'cleanly' after the swing and miss.

Is the D3K in effect?

The 'debate' for some, was that when the ball touched the ground, the pitch was not a 'strike' yet, so the D3K would not be in effect.

My ruling would have been that yes it is a D3K as the rule does not define 'when' a strike is called as a factor, but that the result of the pitch is a strike and the ball had touched the ground before being caught by F2.

thoughts?

(side bar: 'that' partner had no D3K because in his words 'the catcher caught the ball' )

[tcannizzo]

No brainer: D3K - the catcher failed to catch strike three before the ball touched the ground.
Bizarre that it touched the ground so far away from home plate, but there are countless occurrances where the ball bounces right in front of home plate.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by okla21fan

Thanks for the feedback:

Because of the scheduling of this college look, the umpire rotation does not allow for a post game of any kind. The plate umpire after the game will leave the field to ungear while the base ump stays with another plate ump rotating in. The base ump will stays until the previous plate ump returns.

What I did end up doing was in between an inning, I casually mentioned to him that we 'were are team and while I disagreed with his interpretation i was not going to make an issue due to the tournament format.' I then suggested to him that it might be a good idea to brush up on dead ball territory awards when he got home that night. and left it at that.

Of course his retort was 'I have been doing this a long time and I know what I am doing'. Which I simply said 'okay' and then proceeded to take my position for the next inning.

Which brings up the 'situation' that was being discussed by the blues gathered, before the games that morning: (ASA ruleset)

1-2 count on the batter with 1 out. F1 pitches a legal pitch, but upon the release hits her hip with her pitching hand causing an 'errant' pitch (although legal) This pitch takes 1 bounce about 15 feet in front of the pitching rubber (aprox 28 feet from home plate) and continues in flight towards home plate. As the ball crosses home plate, B1 swings and misses the pitched ball. F2 catches the ball 'cleanly' after the swing and miss.

Is the D3K in effect?

The 'debate' for some, was that when the ball touched the ground, the pitch was not a 'strike' yet, so the D3K would not be in effect.

My ruling would have been that yes it is a D3K as the rule does not define 'when' a strike is called as a factor, but that the result of the pitch is a strike and the ball had touched the ground before being caught by F2.

thoughts?

(side bar: 'that' partner had no D3K because in his words 'the catcher caught the ball' )

This was on the ASA exam about 3 years ago. Or possibly it was the variant that if the ball is foul tipped then it is not a D3K.
________
ShaggMyPussy

[MD Longhorn]

Some officials have 20 years experience. Others have 1 year of experience 20 times.

If this were Facebook I'd give this a thumbs up.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

You are implying that the PU is always chief, but I don't think that is in any book. If one of us is with a newbie or one who acts newbie, we would be chief.

Considering what I typed, I would love to know what type of glasses through which you read my post to come up with that conclusion.