Mechanics discussion

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I'll say it again, both ASA and NCAA and probably every other association tell the umpire where to start, where to finish and how to get there in a preferred manner. However, they all support whatever it takes to get the call correct. Some have different ideas than others on how to get to that point, but the objective is the same.

Yet, if I were to rim from A on a ball hit to shallow left in an ASA State or National, I would get dinged for it, even though my reasoning is to keep all of the elements in front of me at all times.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

Yet, if I were to rim from A on a ball hit to shallow left in an ASA State or National, I would get dinged for it, even though my reasoning is to keep all of the elements in front of me at all times.

Yeah, I pretty much said that:

Some have different ideas than others on how to get to that point, but the objective is the same.

But if you followed ASA mechanics that varied from that of the NCAA in a NCAA championship game, you wouldn't get dinged?

An umpire got dinged a couple years ago at an NCAA championship for opening a beer AFTER the tournament, but still in the locker room. There is the story of an umpire lost games in the NCAA Championships in OKC because she had her picture taken on the field while there were still a handful of parents still in the stands at the end of the night. I wouldn't doubt many umpires on here have their own stories.

Again, same target, same demands and expectations, comparable disciplinary actions for failure, just a different path.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Yeah, I pretty much said that:

Some have different ideas than others on how to get to that point, but the objective is the same.

But if you followed ASA mechanics that varied from that of the NCAA in a NCAA championship game, you wouldn't get dinged?

Mike, you are presenting a very simplistic view, especially when it comes to what is written in the manual used by NCAA umpires. There are two inaccuracies in your statement: the NCAA manual does not specific ONE path to which an umpire moves to ONE calling position. This provides flexibility to read a play and take the best path. Therefore, to answer your question, if an umpire were to pivot (where the NCAA preference is to stay "outside"), would they get dinged? No.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

An umpire got dinged a couple years ago at an NCAA championship for opening a beer AFTER the tournament, but still in the locker room. There is the story of an umpire lost games in the NCAA Championships in OKC because she had her picture taken on the field while there were still a handful of parents still in the stands at the end of the night. I wouldn't doubt many umpires on here have their own stories.

Again, same target, same demands and expectations, comparable disciplinary actions for failure, just a different path.

Mike, the two stories you mention have nothing to do with mechanics and everything to do with a code of conduct. In the former, this is expressly forbidden in the NCAA manual. So to be dinged in this case, there is justification.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Mike, you are presenting a very simplistic view, especially when it comes to what is written in the manual used by NCAA umpires. There are two inaccuracies in your statement: the NCAA manual does not specific ONE path to which an umpire moves to ONE calling position. This provides flexibility to read a play and take the best path. Therefore, to answer your question, if an umpire were to pivot (where the NCAA preference is to stay "outside"), would they get dinged? No.

I would agree they shouldn't, but as Steve pointed out earlier, what should be and what is are not necessarily the same thing. Would I be wrong in my belief that if an umpire used strictly ASA mechanics, they would have the same advantage to be assigned higher levels of post season play?

More in response to Scott.

Mike, the two stories you mention have nothing to do with mechanics and everything to do with a code of conduct. In the former, this is expressly forbidden in the NCAA manual. So to be dinged in this case, there is justification.

You are correct and wasn't meant to be. It was a response to how Scott made it sound as if ASA is the mean step-sister by being so strict.

Again, more below.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Yeah, I pretty much said that:

Some have different ideas than others on how to get to that point, but the objective is the same.

But if you followed ASA mechanics that varied from that of the NCAA in a NCAA championship game, you wouldn't get dinged?

An umpire got dinged a couple years ago at an NCAA championship for opening a beer AFTER the tournament, but still in the locker room. There is the story of an umpire lost games in the NCAA Championships in OKC because she had her picture taken on the field while there were still a handful of parents still in the stands at the end of the night. I wouldn't doubt many umpires on here have their own stories.

Again, same target, same demands and expectations, comparable disciplinary actions for failure, just a different path.

The point I was making is that in NCAA I have options. On the play I mentioned, I could either rim or button hook in just like ASA reccommends. Both would be totally acceptable.

I would like to see ASA become a little more lenient at the higher levels where umpire mechanics are concerned.

As for what happens after a game or in a locker room, that isn't covered in any rule book, and thus is strictly subjective to the UIC. This is true of any organization.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

The point I was making is that in NCAA I have options. On the play I mentioned, I could either rim or button hook in just like ASA reccommends. Both would be totally acceptable.

See above.

I would like to see ASA become a little more lenient at the higher levels where umpire mechanics are concerned.

I couldn't agree more, well, almost. My major concern is always that the play gets covered by the umpire who is supposed to cover it. Obviously, there are times an umpire needs help, but that should be the exception. That also means that the crew must be on the same page, or it just isn't going to be a good game for Blue.

But we are trying to compare two different animals. The NCAA is a closed shop that has no problem fielding umpires though I'm not impressed that some umpires receive assignments in multiple levels. But that is what they think works best and it is their call.

Meanwhile, the ASA assignments are more spread out and the quality of umpire is out of the UIC's hands. In some areas, even the state/metro has no say in who is sent to championship play.

As for what happens after a game or in a locker room, that isn't covered in any rule book, and thus is strictly subjective to the UIC. This is true of any organization.

It was noted earlier that this is in some NCAA manual. From the NCAA Div I Manual:


31.1.15 Availability of Alcoholic Beverages.

Alcoholic beverages shall not be sold or otherwise made

available for public consumption at any championship event sponsored by or administered by the Association, nor
shall any such beverages be brought to the site during the championship (during the period from the time access

to the site is available to spectators until all patrons have left the facility or area used for competition).

I read this as pertaining solely to areas accessible to the general public especially since on-campus college facilities hosting NCAA events have been routinely serving alcoholic beverages, but in private club situations. But many outside venues have taken in a step further by selling alcoholic beverages on site, just steps away from the field on which the game is to be played, but just on the other side of a cyclone fence. A private locker room is just that, private.

I know this has nothing to do with mechanics, but with evaluations and part of what Steve mentioned. IMO, this "beer" ding was an act based upon the UIC's personal opinion. This petty BS exists everywhere and, also IMO, should be extremely discounted or outright removed.

Regardless of the game or level, an evaluation should be based on performance and results, not the nit-picking crap I read in some of the evaluations which come through my office.

Okay, done pontificating about this.

Back to the mechanics.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I couldn't agree more, well, almost. My major concern is always that the play gets covered by the umpire who is supposed to cover it. Obviously, there are times an umpire needs help, but that should be the exception. That also means that the crew must be on the same page, or it just isn't going to be a good game for Blue.

IMHO, there is much room for improvement in defining situations where (and how) help should and should not be given, both solicited and unsolicited.

In particular, INT/OBS, a topic that is near and dear to my heart.

Sitch: Umpire who has primary responsibilty, either misses or simply does not call INT/OBS; but partner does.

What is the best way for partner to handle this?
a.) Do nothing, unless help is solicited.
> While this approach preserves the integrity of the primary caller, it could become a difficult situation with coach who would ask, "Well, if you saw, it why didn't you call it, especially when a Dead Ball call is prescribed by rule?"

b.) Offer unsolicited help..If so, how should unsolcited help be offered?
> While this approach is an attempt to "get it right", it could create the perception that one umpire is overturning another umpire's call.

Just askin'

[CecilOne]

I guess I'm a "call it if you see it" person, regardless of "primary area" for calls like INT, OBS, pitch hitting batter, UC; although will reverse if partner has a good reason. Of course, this does not apply to out/safe, catch/no-catch, etc.