Rules question

[youngump]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

By rule, an out.

By practice, calling this out is only going to get you the OOO reputation. If this is tourney - call the out. However, often fall ball is educational ball, for players and coaches alike. Depending on the tenor of this league, you might, instead, tell the coach between innings that she has to go to first on a walk, or she's out.

By what rule? The league rule for ending an inning with six runs is almost certainly underspecified (is there a league rule that isn't?). So, I think by rule we have an inning that ends when the 6th run scores with no apparent nullifying play available meaning the only appeals I will accept are for a runner that has scored. And I'll defy you to show me in the rule book where it says that's not how you're supposed to handle it. (I realize you can make up your own rule where it wouldn't count, but you don't want to call it that way so why not make up my rule as long as we're making up rules either way.)
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FetishStormX

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by youngump

By what rule? The league rule for ending an inning with six runs is almost certainly underspecified (is there a league rule that isn't?). So, I think by rule we have an inning that ends when the 6th run scores with no apparent nullifying play available meaning the only appeals I will accept are for a runner that has scored. And I'll defy you to show me in the rule book where it says that's not how you're supposed to handle it. (I realize you can make up your own rule where it wouldn't count, but you don't want to call it that way so why not make up my rule as long as we're making up rules either way.)

You're kidding, right? The run does not score if the batter-runner is out before reaching first base. The BR was out the moment she entered the dugout, therefore the run doesn't score. I'm not making up a rule here. A rule that says you end at 6 runs doesn't mean you throw out all other rules. (Would you score the 6th run if a runner crossed the plate before BR was thrown out at 1st for the 3rd out? Of course not... this sitch is EXACTLY the same as far as enforcement goes).

[youngump]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

You're kidding, right? The run does not score if the batter-runner is out before reaching first base. The BR was out the moment she entered the dugout, therefore the run doesn't score. I'm not making up a rule here. A rule that says you end at 6 runs doesn't mean you throw out all other rules. (Would you score the 6th run if a runner crossed the plate before BR was thrown out at 1st for the 3rd out? Of course not... this sitch is EXACTLY the same as far as enforcement goes).

No I'm not kidding. The league has a rule that says that the inning ends when the sixth run is scored. It doesn't say quite what that means. Consider this:

With no outs and the bases loaded, the BR hits a sac fly for the 6th run. Unfortunately, the runner at third leaves early. The runner scores and everyone runs off the field from the offense. The defense then appeals that the runner at third left early. Yes, he did and is out. Do you then call another runner out to end the inning?

You are making up rules here to deal with the league rule. I say make up good ones if you have to make up rules.
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KIDS PAXIL

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by youngump

With no outs and the bases loaded, the BR hits a sac fly for the 6th run. Unfortunately, the runner at third leaves early. The runner scores and everyone runs off the field from the offense. The defense then appeals that the runner at third left early. Yes, he did and is out. Do you then call another runner out to end the inning?

For what? How in the world is this a similar situation. I can't imagine what you're trying to call a 3rd out for, but no, I would not - there's no reason to.

You are making up rules here to deal with the league rule. I say make up good ones if you have to make up rules.

I am not making up any rules. The league has a rule that says the inning is over when the 6th run scores. The 6th run never scored. I've given you the rule that applies. Please tell me why you think that just because the league has a rule about how many runs can score in an inning, you need to throw out the rest of the existing rules. This makes no sense.

It's very simple. A BR who is awarded first base on a base-on-balls is out if she leaves the field of play without going to first. Right? And a run cannot score on a play where the 3rd out is made on a BR before she reaches first. Very simple, and no inventing of rules.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

For what? How in the world is this a similar situation. I can't imagine what you're trying to call a 3rd out for, but no, I would not - there's no reason to.

Sure there is, the runner who is supposed to be on second is in the dugout. What I'm guessing you'd do, though I'd like you to state for certain, is call time and return the runners to base after the appeal? Is that correct?
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LIVE SEX WEBSHOWS

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by youngump

Sure there is, the runner who is supposed to be on second is in the dugout. What I'm guessing you'd do, though I'd like you to state for certain, is call time and return the runners to base after the appeal? Is that correct?

Absolutely.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Absolutely.

By what rule?
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Infants prilosec

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by youngump

By what rule? The league rule for ending an inning with six runs is almost certainly underspecified (is there a league rule that isn't?). So, I think by rule we have an inning that ends when the 6th run scores with no apparent nullifying play available meaning the only appeals I will accept are for a runner that has scored. And I'll defy you to show me in the rule book where it says that's not how you're supposed to handle it. (I realize you can make up your own rule where it wouldn't count, but you don't want to call it that way so why not make up my rule as long as we're making up rules either way.)

Read your rule book carefully. It clearly states that "no run, (meaning zero, zilch, zip, nada), can score" when the third out of the inning is made by the batter-runner before reaching first base.

In this case, the batter-runner was out prior to reaching first base, because she opted to leave the field of play instead. So, how many runs can score? Zero.

[Skahtboi]

Oh...and if you need a rule reference, check out NFHS 9.1.a. for this. I don't have my ASA, USSSA, or NCAA books with me at work. (Actually, I don't have my NFHS book here either, but I do have that handy dandy digital version available.)

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

Read your rule book carefully. It clearly states that "no run, (meaning zero, zilch, zip, nada), can score" when the third out of the inning is made by the batter-runner before reaching first base.

In this case, the batter-runner was out prior to reaching first base, because she opted to leave the field of play instead. So, how many runs can score? Zero.

I understand what the book says. The problem here is that you have a league rule and it does change things. Whether it changes this or not is unspecified and I'm saying that as long as you have to make up the body of the rule, why not make it up in the most equitable fashion possible.
A solid argument might be made that we should be consistent with game ending procedures and I could respect that though I think it's less in line with how the game is actually played. The argument that the league rule can't change this rule but only other rules is somewhat lost on me though.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by youngump

I understand what the book says. The problem here is that you have a league rule and it does change things. Whether it changes this or not is unspecified and I'm saying that as long as you have to make up the body of the rule, why not make it up in the most equitable fashion possible.
A solid argument might be made that we should be consistent with game ending procedures and I could respect that though I think it's less in line with how the game is actually played. The argument that the league rule can't change this rule but only other rules is somewhat lost on me though.

No one is saying that a league rule cannot supercede this. However, the OP makes absolutely no mention of that. (Again, no means no. None.) Barring that piece of evidence, we have to go with the book rule. And this book rule is as I have already stated.

Now, if the OP said that they "have a six run per inning rule, and that the runners who are forced to advance do not have to do so if the sixth run will score as a result of an award, and that no fourth out appeal, nor any other action by a player, coach or umpire can nullify a run once it has scored," I might be willing to entertain your argument. However, the OP never stated anything remotely close to that, and I am sure that no PARD director in their right mind (I know some who aren't) would ever make such a league rule.

You are really reaching here to defend an argument that has little to no merit and subsequently muddying the waters for those officials, players and coaches who might be reading this forum in hope of getting some concise answers.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by youngump

I understand what the book says. The problem here is that you have a league rule and it does change things. Whether it changes this or not is unspecified and I'm saying that as long as you have to make up the body of the rule, why not make it up in the most equitable fashion possible.
A solid argument might be made that we should be consistent with game ending procedures and I could respect that though I think it's less in line with how the game is actually played. The argument that the league rule can't change this rule but only other rules is somewhat lost on me though.

No... I believe the problem here (and I hate local rules as much as the next guy) is that you're trying to say that since there's a local rule that might apply, then there must be other ones, written or unwritten, that we can pretend apply. There's no need to add additional rules.

The league rule CAN change other rules. They can, should they choose, specify that a batter in THIS ONE case doesn't have to go to first. But they didn't ... so why are you choosing to add a rule that doesn't exist?

Just because an inning (or game, really!) APPEARS to be over does not mean it's over. I have a coach that consistently tells his players to complete the play (on either side of the ball) in situations where the run-limit is reached or in cases where it appears the game is over. Several thought he was either crazy, or just trying to get in extra practice...

Until the one day, where he needed 5 (the run rule in that league) to win the game. 4 runs in, tie game, R1 on 2nd, R1 on first. 1 out. Ball hit to right. R1 misses 3rd and scores. R1 also scores and BR stops at 2nd. The other coach appealed the miss at 3rd and got the 2nd out - but since his team kept playing, they won anyway. Had R1 not continued, we'd have had to keep playing that game. I've seen this team get "outs" on defense after the apparent inning-ending run had scored, and so far it hasn't mattered, but it COULD, in much the same manner as above.