Ball Out of Play

[IRISHMAFIA]

ASA

Runner on 2B. Batter hits a shot that short hops the outfielder, glances off his shoulder and over the RCF fence.

Where do you put the runners?

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

ASA

Runner on 2B. Batter hits a shot that short hops the outfielder, glances off his shoulder and over the RCF fence.

Where do you put the runners?

Because of the fact..."glances off his shoulder.." I would go with:
8.5.G.
EXCEPTION
1. When a fielder loses possession of the ball, and the ball leaves live ball territory or becomes blocked.
EFFECT Each runner is awarded one base from the last base touched at the time the ball entered dead territory or becomes blocked.

Runner on 2B gets home. BR gets 2B.

I know its not a perfect fit as I'm taking "glances off his shoulder" to be the same as loosing possession, and the sitch clearly indicates there was never any possession of the ball on the part of the fielder.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Because of the fact..."glances off his shoulder.." I would go with:
8.5.G.
EXCEPTION
1. When a fielder loses possession of the ball, and the ball leaves live ball territory or becomes blocked.
EFFECT Each runner is awarded one base from the last base touched at the time the ball entered dead territory or becomes blocked.

Runner on 2B gets home. BR gets 2B.

I know its not a perfect fit as I'm taking "glances off his shoulder" to be the same as loosing possession, and the sitch clearly indicates there was never any possession of the ball on the part of the fielder.

How can a player lose possession of a ball they never held, let alone possess? I don't know, helluva stretch.

Besides, 8.5.G refers to an overthrown or blocked ball. The scenario involves neither.

[NCASAUmp]

Two base award from TOP (8-5-I-1).

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Two base award from TOP (8-5-I-1).

But this is a deflected ball. In 8.5.I.2 through 4, ASA specifically addresses deflected balls, so why assume 8.5.I.1 would include a deflected ball?

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

How can a player lose possession of a ball they never held, let alone possess? I don't know, helluva stretch.

Besides, 8.5.G refers to an overthrown or blocked ball. The scenario involves neither.

Uggh! Of course. Back to the drawing board.

[KJUmp]

As much as I'd like to use 8.5.I.2, it reads: "Deflects off a defensive player and goes out of play in foul territory."
In the sitch it went over the RCF fence.....so again I find myself looking at a square peg and trying to fit it into a round hole.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

But this is a deflected ball. In 8.5.I.2 through 4, ASA specifically addresses deflected balls, so why assume 8.5.I.1 would include a deflected ball?

Because it doesn't say that it MUST be deflected.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Because it doesn't say that it MUST be deflected.

I understand that. And because you expect it of me, let me add, No $ hit!

However, my question still stands. If ASA goes through the trouble of addressing a deflected ball in three of the four paragraphs, why would you assume the paragraph that does not also applies? If you look at paragraph #1 and apply it to all live, fair batted balls, deflected or otherwise, would that not make the three subsequent paragraphs redundant?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I understand that. And because you expect it of me, let me add, No $ hit!

However, my question still stands. If ASA goes through the trouble of addressing a deflected ball in three of the four paragraphs, why would you assume the paragraph that does not also applies? If you look at paragraph #1 and apply it to all live, fair batted balls, deflected or otherwise, would that not make the three subsequent paragraphs redundant?

Editing oversights? Redundancies and over-clarifications?

[Tru_in_Blu]

Thought I read a rules/clarifications scenario which may also have been a test question at some point.

It was a batted ball that hits the fence, bounces back and contacts the fielder, and then bounces over the fence in what would be fair territory.

I believe the award was two bases for the batter, but I don't recall if runners award(s) was based on TOP. I think that would be the logical option.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Thought I read a rules/clarifications scenario which may also have been a test question at some point.

It was a batted ball that hits the fence, bounces back and contacts the fielder, and then bounces over the fence in what would be fair territory.

I believe the award was two bases for the batter, but I don't recall if runners award(s) was based on TOP. I think that would be the logical option.

Okay, not only was that one of the dumbest rule changes ASA added to the book since it was the epitome of redundancy and specifically addresses a ball off the fence.

Please understand, I know what the correct ruling is on the play offered, I'm just looking for a rule which clearly supports it. Personally, I think this is one that is so obvious, it is routinely overlooked.

[MD Longhorn]

Doesn't the ground rule-double rule apply here? I don't have the book here, so if that's the aforementioned 8-5-1, can someone post it here? Similar to the ball off Canseco's head being a 4-base award, seems the bouncing ball off his head (or shoulder) would be the 2-base award. I know I'd rule it a GRD on the field - if I'm overruled by a protest committee ... well, you learn something new every day.

[Skahtboi]

Don't have my ASA book with me, but I could peruse the NCAA rules (thanks to a nice little iPhone app), and it would appear that in the case of a batted ball that has already hit the ground prior to deflecting off of the player into dead ball territory would in fact result in a two base award to both the batter and the runner.

Of course, had it deflected off the player in flight and gone over the HR fence in fair territory, it would be a four base award.

I don't think that ASA would be much, if any, different in this ruling. So, Mike, what's the catch here?