Boo

[greymule]

ASA, Fed, and NCAA all treat BOO differently.

As previous posters have noted, in the OP, ASA would have B3's out stand and B2 out for failing to bat in the proper order. B3 is skipped over, and B4 bats. However, if B4 had batted instead of B2 and struck out, then B4's strikeout would stand, B2 would be out, and B3 would bat followed by B4 (batting for the second time in the inning).

In ASA, it is never to the disadvantage of the defense to appeal BOO. In NCAA (which follows OBR) and Fed, there are situations in which it's better not to appeal.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by greymule

ASA, Fed, and NCAA all treat BOO differently.

As previous posters have noted, in the OP, ASA would have B3's out stand and B2 out for failing to bat in the proper order. B3 is skipped over, and B4 bats. However, if B4 had batted instead of B2 and struck out, then B4's strikeout would stand, B2 would be out, and B3 would bat followed by B4 (batting for the second time in the inning).

No, I believe in ASA, a batter who has made an out would not be provided the opportunity to make another out in the same inning until the other 8/9 batters have had an equal opportunity.

[greymule]

No, I believe in ASA, a batter who has made an out would not be provided the opportunity to make another out in the same inning until the other 8/9 batters have had an equal opportunity.

Well, we disagree on this. I'm interpreting ". . . and is scheduled to be the proper batter" as applying at the moment the penalty is enforced, not after a batter or several batters later in the inning.

In other words, I think you skip B3 if he made an out when B2 was supposed to bat, or B5 instead of B4, or B9 instead of B8. But if, for example, B8 batted and made an out when B4 was supposed to bat, then B4 is out, B5 bats, and B8 would bat a second time in that inning if his turn came up. (Otherwise, the rules should say something about not batting again in the inning until you've gone through the order.)

I suspect you are deriving your interpretation partly from Part d, where the change of inning would appear to allow the batter "scheduled to be the proper batter" to bat again. For example, B3 bats instead of B2 and strikes out for the second out. The defense appeals the BOO. B2 is called out for the third out. Now, according to Part d, B3 leads off the next inning, batting for the second time in a row.

But this is merely my reading of the rules. I never sought an official ruling from ASA. I don't know of a definitive case play on this situation, but if I get time today, I'll see whether I can find one.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by greymule

No, I believe in ASA, a batter who has made an out would not be provided the opportunity to make another out in the same inning until the other 8/9 batters have had an equal opportunity.

Well, we disagree on this. I'm interpreting ". . . and is scheduled to be the proper batter" as applying at the moment the penalty is enforced, not after a batter or several batters later in the inning.

In other words, I think you skip B3 if he made an out when B2 was supposed to bat, or B5 instead of B4, or B9 instead of B8. But if, for example, B8 batted and made an out when B4 was supposed to bat, then B4 is out, B5 bats, and B8 would bat a second time in that inning if his turn came up. (Otherwise, the rules should say something about not batting again in the inning until you've gone through the order.)

I suspect you are deriving your interpretation partly from Part d, where the change of inning would appear to allow the batter "scheduled to be the proper batter" to bat again. For example, B3 bats instead of B2 and strikes out for the second out. The defense appeals the BOO. B2 is called out for the third out. Now, according to Part d, B3 leads off the next inning, batting for the second time in a row.

But this is merely my reading of the rules. I never sought an official ruling from ASA. I don't know of a definitive case play on this situation, but if I get time today, I'll see whether I can find one.

Go to an earlier thread here.

[greymule]

Yes, there was an earlier thread on this, too.

Everything in the "clarifications" makes sense to me, including:

"EXCEPTION: If the incorrect batter is called out as a result of their time at bat and is scheduled to be the proper batter, skip that player and the next person in the line-up will be the batter."

I read this literally, as applying only when the batter who batted out of order and made an out happens to be the next proper batter. I don't see anything in the clarifications or the rules indicating that any batter who bats out of order and makes an out (and BOO is appealed) is skipped over if he is to come to bat later in the inning.

But if this is indeed the case, then a rule should be written to reflect that fact, e.g., "If an improper batter makes an out and the defense appeals, the out made by the improper batter counts, the batter who failed to bat when he should have is called out, the next batter in the lineup becomes the proper batter, and the improper batter who made an out is skipped over the first time he comes to bat later in the inning."

Otherwise, we're expanding the exception, which clearly applies in one specific case, to everybody in the lineup.

But again, let's see a case play or get a ruling from ASA. In fact, I'll see if I still have Bob Mauger's e-mail address.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Whatever

[PSUchem]

Originally Posted by greymule

"EXCEPTION: If the incorrect batter is called out as a result of their time at bat and is scheduled to be the proper batter, skip that player and the next person in the line-up will be the batter."

I read this literally, as applying only when the batter who batted out of order and made an out happens to be the next proper batter. I don't see anything in the clarifications or the rules indicating that any batter who bats out of order and makes an out (and BOO is appealed) is skipped over if he is to come to bat later in the inning.

I'm also reluctant to disagree with Mike, but I'm sticking with the comments made by greymule and others. I take the exception literally.

Speaking ASA,
If B1 is scheduled to bat, but B3 bats instead and makes an out: B2 is called out for BOO, B3's out stands, B3 is skipped based on the exception because she is now the proper batter at that instant, and B4 will bat.

If B1 is scheduled to bat, but B4 bats instead and makes an out: B2 is called out for BOO, B4's out stands, B3 is scheduled to be the proper batter, so she is brought to the plate. At the time of "play ball," the order is then B3, B4, B5...

After establishing the proper batter at the time of the BOO, the lineup thereafter cannot change because no rule supports such a change. The exception applies only to the instant that you are deciding who is the proper batter.

Good luck keeping the scorebook on that one.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

No, I believe in ASA, a batter who has made an out would not be provided the opportunity to make another out in the same inning until the other 8/9 batters have had an equal opportunity.

I'm very reluctant to disagree with Mike... ever... as I'm usually proved wrong. But I'm about 99.9% sure this statement is incorrect. B1, B4 K, BOO appeal (B2 out for not batting, B4's out stands), B3 ... then B4 is up to bat. You don't skip that batter. Please show me the rule where it says you do.

If you do ... what about this:

B1, B9K, BOO Appeal (B2 out for not batting, B9's K stands)... then B3,4,5,6,7,8 all hit - are you skipping 9 now?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I'm very reluctant to disagree with Mike... ever... as I'm usually proved wrong. But I'm about 99.9% sure this statement is incorrect. B1, B4 K, BOO appeal (B2 out for not batting, B4's out stands), B3 ... then B4 is up to bat. You don't skip that batter. Please show me the rule where it says you do.

From the previously cited Rule Clarifications:

Play 1: With no outs, B9 is scheduled to bat but B1 bats. B1 hits a fly ball that is caught by F7. Before the next pitch, the defense appeals that B1 batted out of order.
Ruling: B9 is out as B9 is the correct batter and B1 remains out. B2 bats next with two outs. Per Rule 7, Section 2 D 2, after the incorrect batter has completed their turn at bat and before the next pitch, legal or illegal, to the following batter and before the pitcher and all infielders have clearly vacated their normal fielding positions and have left fair territory; the batter who should have batted is out and the next batter is the player whose name follows that of the player called out for failing to bat. EXCEPTION: If the incorrect batter is called out as a result of their time at bat and is scheduled to be the proper batter, skip that player and the next person in the line-up will be the batter.

[charliej47]

Going back to the original OP:
I discussed this with the state ASA rules interpreter and B3 would be skipped "for that round" of batting. If the team batted around and B3 came up the "second" time then she would bat.

Also NFHS Rule 7.1.2 CASE book situations G and H describe the play where B3 would bat again as the proper batter.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

From the previously cited Rule Clarifications:

Play 1: With no outs, B9 is scheduled to bat but B1 bats. B1 hits a fly ball that is caught by F7. Before the next pitch, the defense appeals that B1 batted out of order.
Ruling: B9 is out as B9 is the correct batter and B1 remains out. B2 bats next with two outs. Per Rule 7, Section 2 D 2, after the incorrect batter has completed their turn at bat and before the next pitch, legal or illegal, to the following batter and before the pitcher and all infielders have clearly vacated their normal fielding positions and have left fair territory; the batter who should have batted is out and the next batter is the player whose name follows that of the player called out for failing to bat. EXCEPTION: If the incorrect batter is called out as a result of their time at bat and is scheduled to be the proper batter, skip that player and the next person in the line-up will be the batter.

Yes ... we agree with that. No one is disputing that if the player that incorrectly batted is scheduled up next (as B1 would be if B9 was supposed to bat), you skip that batter. However, you've extended this to skip a FUTURE batter should the player that batted out of order come up to bat later in that inning. I find no support for that anywhere.

[JefferMC]

You would find support from the scorekeeper who needs a box on the scoresheet to record the player's at-bat, and since he's already taken one in the current column.

Oh, you meant in the rulebook. Well, who cares about that old thing.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Yes ... we agree with that. No one is disputing that if the player that incorrectly batted is scheduled up next (as B1 would be if B9 was supposed to bat), you skip that batter. However, you've extended this to skip a FUTURE batter should the player that batted out of order come up to bat later in that inning. I find no support for that anywhere.

A lot of people keep on referring to the literal interpretation. Where in that rule clarification does it say it had to be the IMMEDIATE proper batter?

Is not a "proper batter" the one scheduled to bat after that batter which precedes him/her in the line up?

You do not take a "proper batter" off the base to hit, why would you bring back the "proper batter" who made a recorded out to come back?

If you want to take it literally......

[greymule]

Where in that rule clarification does it say it had to be the IMMEDIATE proper batter?

It depends on what the meaning of is is.

"If the incorrect batter is called out as a result of their time at bat and is scheduled to be the proper batter, skip that player and the next person in the line-up will be the batter."

If we understand present tense to refer to the present and thus understand is to mean is and not will at some later point be, then you skip over that batter only if he is at present scheduled to be the proper batter.

Obviously, everybody in the lineup is scheduled to be the proper batter at some point.

[MD Longhorn]

[QUOTE=IRISHMAFIA;678449]You do not take a "proper batter" off the base to hit, why would you bring back the "proper batter" who made a recorded out to come back?QUOTE]

Actually, I think you just made my point for me... You do not take a proper batter off the base to hit because the rulebook specifically tells you not to. If what you're asserting is the way they intended it, they would not have needed to tell us again.

In fact, I believe there was a case play with two different BOO's about 5-6 years ago that wouldn't have been BOO (on the 2nd one) if what you're asserting is what they intended ... so, now I have to dig through old books.

Is there a higher authority to ask this of?

Let me ask this... B1 singles... B6 strikes out... B2 ruled out for not batting, B6's out stands, 2 outs, B3 is up. B3-5 all hit. If B7 comes up, I have BOO again. If B6 comes up... do YOU have BOO?

Further... B1 singles ... B6 singles, B1 is thrown out at third base advancing... B2 ruled out for not batting, B1's out stands, remove B6 from the bases... B3-5 - NOW who do you have up?