Boo

[charliej47]

ASA - I'm calling the plate. For shortness I'll use numbers.
B1 bats and gets on 1st. B3 bats and strikes out. B4 comes to the box and HC calls time and requests BOO rule. I whip out my handy-dandy lineup cards and sure enough we have a BOO. I call B2 out for the second out and tell VC to put B3 back in the box. VC wants to protest. I inform the HC that the VC is protesting. B3 strikes out again to end the inning. game continues and the visiting team wins by 3.

I did not hear back from the committee so I guess I was upheld.

I have checked the rules and as far as I can determine I did it correctly. Any one have any comments?

[PSUchem]

In ASA, B2 is out for BOO, B3's out stands, and B4 should have batted. HC should have protested because you removed another out. Not sure why VC protested?

[BlitzkriegBob]

PSU is correct, but I'm left wondering why you let B3 bat again even though you apparently let her initial strikeout stand. I've never been involved in a protest, but IMO since B4 should have been the correct batter, the protest would have been upheld had the visiting team lost the game.

[vcblue]

ASA Rule 7-2-c-exception: If the incorrect batter is called out as a result of their time a bat... skip that player...

[BretMan]

Charlie, I know that you work high school ball here in Ohio. Your call would have been correct under NFHS rules- IF you would have negated B3's first strike out and cancelled her "first" out, which it sounds like you didn't do.

Your final call enforced some sort of hybrid combination of the FED rule and the ASA rule that isn't correct for either one!

As pointed out, the ASA rule is a little bit different. The out made by an improper batter stands. Her at-bat is official. Since she is the next batter in the line-up, but her at-bat has been completed, the next proper batter should be B4.

This is one of those nagging rule differences that we get to deal with. It doesn't help matters that the BOO rule is a full page long and has many twists and turns to begin with. When you factor in that it's a rule we rarely deal with on the field, not really getting much chance to wrap our minds around all the in's and out's in a practical "real world" situation, it makes it easy to miss one of these nagging points.

By the way, the reason you never heard anything back about the protest is probably because the protesting team won the game. When that happens, the protest is moot and ignored.

[greymule]

ASA, Fed, and NCAA all treat BOO differently.

As previous posters have noted, in the OP, ASA would have B3's out stand and B2 out for failing to bat in the proper order. B3 is skipped over, and B4 bats. However, if B4 had batted instead of B2 and struck out, then B4's strikeout would stand, B2 would be out, and B3 would bat followed by B4 (batting for the second time in the inning).

In ASA, it is never to the disadvantage of the defense to appeal BOO. In NCAA (which follows OBR) and Fed, there are situations in which it's better not to appeal.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by greymule

ASA, Fed, and NCAA all treat BOO differently.

As previous posters have noted, in the OP, ASA would have B3's out stand and B2 out for failing to bat in the proper order. B3 is skipped over, and B4 bats. However, if B4 had batted instead of B2 and struck out, then B4's strikeout would stand, B2 would be out, and B3 would bat followed by B4 (batting for the second time in the inning).

No, I believe in ASA, a batter who has made an out would not be provided the opportunity to make another out in the same inning until the other 8/9 batters have had an equal opportunity.

[greymule]

No, I believe in ASA, a batter who has made an out would not be provided the opportunity to make another out in the same inning until the other 8/9 batters have had an equal opportunity.

Well, we disagree on this. I'm interpreting ". . . and is scheduled to be the proper batter" as applying at the moment the penalty is enforced, not after a batter or several batters later in the inning.

In other words, I think you skip B3 if he made an out when B2 was supposed to bat, or B5 instead of B4, or B9 instead of B8. But if, for example, B8 batted and made an out when B4 was supposed to bat, then B4 is out, B5 bats, and B8 would bat a second time in that inning if his turn came up. (Otherwise, the rules should say something about not batting again in the inning until you've gone through the order.)

I suspect you are deriving your interpretation partly from Part d, where the change of inning would appear to allow the batter "scheduled to be the proper batter" to bat again. For example, B3 bats instead of B2 and strikes out for the second out. The defense appeals the BOO. B2 is called out for the third out. Now, according to Part d, B3 leads off the next inning, batting for the second time in a row.

But this is merely my reading of the rules. I never sought an official ruling from ASA. I don't know of a definitive case play on this situation, but if I get time today, I'll see whether I can find one.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by greymule

No, I believe in ASA, a batter who has made an out would not be provided the opportunity to make another out in the same inning until the other 8/9 batters have had an equal opportunity.

Well, we disagree on this. I'm interpreting ". . . and is scheduled to be the proper batter" as applying at the moment the penalty is enforced, not after a batter or several batters later in the inning.

In other words, I think you skip B3 if he made an out when B2 was supposed to bat, or B5 instead of B4, or B9 instead of B8. But if, for example, B8 batted and made an out when B4 was supposed to bat, then B4 is out, B5 bats, and B8 would bat a second time in that inning if his turn came up. (Otherwise, the rules should say something about not batting again in the inning until you've gone through the order.)

I suspect you are deriving your interpretation partly from Part d, where the change of inning would appear to allow the batter "scheduled to be the proper batter" to bat again. For example, B3 bats instead of B2 and strikes out for the second out. The defense appeals the BOO. B2 is called out for the third out. Now, according to Part d, B3 leads off the next inning, batting for the second time in a row.

But this is merely my reading of the rules. I never sought an official ruling from ASA. I don't know of a definitive case play on this situation, but if I get time today, I'll see whether I can find one.

Go to an earlier thread here.

[greymule]

Yes, there was an earlier thread on this, too.

Everything in the "clarifications" makes sense to me, including:

"EXCEPTION: If the incorrect batter is called out as a result of their time at bat and is scheduled to be the proper batter, skip that player and the next person in the line-up will be the batter."

I read this literally, as applying only when the batter who batted out of order and made an out happens to be the next proper batter. I don't see anything in the clarifications or the rules indicating that any batter who bats out of order and makes an out (and BOO is appealed) is skipped over if he is to come to bat later in the inning.

But if this is indeed the case, then a rule should be written to reflect that fact, e.g., "If an improper batter makes an out and the defense appeals, the out made by the improper batter counts, the batter who failed to bat when he should have is called out, the next batter in the lineup becomes the proper batter, and the improper batter who made an out is skipped over the first time he comes to bat later in the inning."

Otherwise, we're expanding the exception, which clearly applies in one specific case, to everybody in the lineup.

But again, let's see a case play or get a ruling from ASA. In fact, I'll see if I still have Bob Mauger's e-mail address.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Whatever

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

No, I believe in ASA, a batter who has made an out would not be provided the opportunity to make another out in the same inning until the other 8/9 batters have had an equal opportunity.

I'm very reluctant to disagree with Mike... ever... as I'm usually proved wrong. But I'm about 99.9% sure this statement is incorrect. B1, B4 K, BOO appeal (B2 out for not batting, B4's out stands), B3 ... then B4 is up to bat. You don't skip that batter. Please show me the rule where it says you do.

If you do ... what about this:

B1, B9K, BOO Appeal (B2 out for not batting, B9's K stands)... then B3,4,5,6,7,8 all hit - are you skipping 9 now?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I'm very reluctant to disagree with Mike... ever... as I'm usually proved wrong. But I'm about 99.9% sure this statement is incorrect. B1, B4 K, BOO appeal (B2 out for not batting, B4's out stands), B3 ... then B4 is up to bat. You don't skip that batter. Please show me the rule where it says you do.

From the previously cited Rule Clarifications:

Play 1: With no outs, B9 is scheduled to bat but B1 bats. B1 hits a fly ball that is caught by F7. Before the next pitch, the defense appeals that B1 batted out of order.
Ruling: B9 is out as B9 is the correct batter and B1 remains out. B2 bats next with two outs. Per Rule 7, Section 2 D 2, after the incorrect batter has completed their turn at bat and before the next pitch, legal or illegal, to the following batter and before the pitcher and all infielders have clearly vacated their normal fielding positions and have left fair territory; the batter who should have batted is out and the next batter is the player whose name follows that of the player called out for failing to bat. EXCEPTION: If the incorrect batter is called out as a result of their time at bat and is scheduled to be the proper batter, skip that player and the next person in the line-up will be the batter.

[charliej47]

Going back to the original OP:
I discussed this with the state ASA rules interpreter and B3 would be skipped "for that round" of batting. If the team batted around and B3 came up the "second" time then she would bat.

Also NFHS Rule 7.1.2 CASE book situations G and H describe the play where B3 would bat again as the proper batter.

[charliej47]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Charlie, I know that you work high school ball here in Ohio. Your call would have been correct under NFHS rules- IF you would have negated B3's first strike out and cancelled her "first" out, which it sounds like you didn't do.

Your final call enforced some sort of hybrid combination of the FED rule and the ASA rule that isn't correct for either one!

As pointed out, the ASA rule is a little bit different. The out made by an improper batter stands. Her at-bat is official. Since she is the next batter in the line-up, but her at-bat has been completed, the next proper batter should be B4.

This is one of those nagging rule differences that we get to deal with. It doesn't help matters that the BOO rule is a full page long and has many twists and turns to begin with. When you factor in that it's a rule we rarely deal with on the field, not really getting much chance to wrap our minds around all the in's and out's in a practical "real world" situation, it makes it easy to miss one of these nagging points.

By the way, the reason you never heard anything back about the protest is probably because the protesting team won the game. When that happens, the protest is moot and ignored.

IT appears that the only differenced between ASA and NFHS is that the B3 is skipped for ASA and would bat again for NFHS.