Quote:
Originally Posted by RonA
(Post 677785)
Right, I understand that. But...
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Well, Ron, apparently you don't! ;)
Whenever the batter-runner is retired before safely reaching first base, for any reason,
ALL force plays are removed. And we're talking about real, genuine, by-the-book "force plays" as defined in the rule book.
You're describing a play where a runner might be smart to advance, or might want to avoid a situation where two runners are on one base, or might just happen to move toward the next base. But none of those are honest-to-goodness "force plays" for the purpose of the rules.
The defense tagging the base with the ball ahead of any of these runners won't yield an out. Since the batter-runner was out before reaching first base, and since that removes all force plays, the defense needs to actually tag a runner while he's off his base get an out here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonA
(Post 677802)
OK, so the runner at 2nd is not forced. But, when R2 advances to 3rd, isn't R3 forced at HP, because R2 reaches 3rd?
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Nope.
Remember...none of the runners are forced to advance on this play. If R2 advances to third and R3 is still standing on the bag, it is R2 who is liable to be put out. When there are no force plays, the lead runner may legally occupy his base. It is the trailing runner who is liable to be put out.
The trail runner could be tagged while not in contact with third for an out...OR...the trail runner could be tagged out while standing ON third base at the same time as the lead runner. Only one runner is entitled to occupy one base and, on this play, that one runner is the lead runner.
If there ARE force outs to be had, then that changes. Let's suppose that instead of hitting an Infield Fly (which removed all of the force outs) the batter had singled. Now, there ARE force outs available at every single base. That means that R3 IS forced to advance on this play.
If R3 and R2 are both standing on third, it is the lead runner who can be tagged out. By being forced to advance, the lead runner loses all protection from being put out that touching a base normally affords. When actually forced to advance, which runner can be tagged out while touching the base is totally opposite than when they aren't forced to advance.
It sounds kind of confusing, but isn't as confusing once you understand the rule book definition of a "force out". A lot hinges on that definition on these plays!