ASA Slow Pitch Foul Tip

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by youngump

They're ambiguous enough to get to either rule.

How is the ASA rule ambiguous? Either it went sharply and directly to the catcher's glove or hand without a perceptible arc AND is caught, or it didn't.

[IRISHMAFIA]

This is heading down a path Bretman and I encountered on another board.

ASA refers to "sharply and directly" on when addressing a foul tip. ASA only refers to "directly" when addressing a foul ball which first touches a part of the catcher or equipment other than the hand(s) or glove.

By the way the rule presently reads, the only time this happens and it is a foul ball is when a fielder other than the catcher catches the ball in flight off the catcher. The discussion is if it is to be called as youngump notes, why would ASA include "another fielder" in the rule declaring the ball foul (Rule 1 - Definitions Foul Ball)?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

This is heading down a path Bretman and I encountered on another board.

ASA refers to "sharply and directly" on when addressing a foul tip. ASA only refers to "directly" when addressing a foul ball which first touches a part of the catcher or equipment other than the hand(s) or glove.

By the way the rule presently reads, the only time this happens and it is a foul ball is when a fielder other than the catcher catches the ball in flight off the catcher. The discussion is if it is to be called as youngump notes, why would ASA include "another fielder" in the rule declaring the ball foul (Rule 1 - Definitions Foul Ball)?

Don't have my book with me now, so I can't look that up. But just to be clear on what you're saying, in the play I posted (sharp and direct to the catchers chest then into the glove (or out into the air and caught by another fielder): Foul fly ball for an out in ASA.
And NFHS has a statement to fix this so in NFHS both variants foul ball.
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[youngump]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

How is the ASA rule ambiguous? Either it went sharply and directly to the catcher's glove or hand without a perceptible arc AND is caught, or it didn't.

The rule is not ambiguous about what a foul tip is. The rule is ambiguous about whether a ball fouled off the catcher can still be caught for an out. [Though I readily concede your reading is more natural, someone who thought the rule was the other way wouldn't be convinced they were wrong by reading it.]
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[greymule]

I'm confused. Is anybody actually contending that in ASA a nicked pitch, not perceptibly deflected, that bounces off the catcher's mask and then falls into his glove is an out?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by greymule

I'm confused. Is anybody actually contending that in ASA a nicked pitch, not perceptibly deflected, that bounces off the catcher's mask and then falls into his glove is an out?

Not necessarily, but can you cite a rule which prevents such a ruling? Let's go a little further. How about a batted ball that goes directly to the catcher's shoulder, rises 10-15 feet into the air and the catcher grabs and holds the ball prior to it touching the ground or anything else?

[BretMan]

Hmmm, Mike. This conversation sounds familiar...

[youngump]

Originally Posted by greymule

I'm confused. Is anybody actually contending that in ASA a nicked pitch, not perceptibly deflected, that bounces off the catcher's mask and then falls into his glove is an out?

Yes, Dave is; post #7. And I thought I read Mike as telling me he was right.
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[Welpe]

I found this in the 2008 book...sorry for not posting from a current version but this is the latest I have.

RS 22 Foul Ball / Foul Tip:

"...The defintion of a foul ball has not changed. However, a foul tip is now defined as a batted ball that goes sharply and directly from the bat to the catcher's glove / mitt or hand and is legally caught by the catcher. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball remains live in Fast Pitch and Slow Pitch with stealing.

It is not a catch if the ball rebounds off the catcher, unless the ball has first touched the catcher's glove / mitt or hand. Again only a foul tip can be caught by the catcher."

Looking at the bolded sentence above, it seems to me that a ball hit sharply and directly back that does not first hit a catcher's glove or hand is a foul ball.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I found this in the 2008 book...sorry for not posting from a current version but this is the latest I have.

RS 22 Foul Ball / Foul Tip:

"...The defintion of a foul ball has not changed. However, a foul tip is now defined as a batted ball that goes sharply and directly from the bat to the catcher's glove / mitt or hand and is legally caught by the catcher. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball remains live in Fast Pitch and Slow Pitch with stealing.

It is not a catch if the ball rebounds off the catcher, unless the ball has first touched the catcher's glove / mitt or hand. Again only a foul tip can be caught by the catcher."

Looking at the bolded sentence above, it seems to me that a ball hit sharply and directly back that does not first hit a catcher's glove or hand is a foul ball.

This is in reference to the difference between a foul ball and a foul tip. The highlighted sentence is stressing the point that the ball. And again, the rule does NOT require the foul ball to be sharply, just directly.

Everyone on this thread are going to pick apart the rules and RS to justify the call that is made. There is no way around it that there is no rule as presently written that supports a simple foul ball call.

I understand it is called a foul ball, but as Bretman will tell you , I'm just reading the rules.