Live ball appeal - missed home plate

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

I'm confusing myself.
I could use an answer for ASA, NFHS and NCAA fastpitch.

BR beats the throw to home (by several steps - in fact there is no tag attempt) but misses home plate.
F2 mis handles ball and goes to fence to retrieve it as BR (unaware that she missed plate) heads to her dugout.
F2 tosses ball to F1 in the circle area as defence fans start shouting "throw it home", she missed the plate", etc.
By now BR is in the crowd of congratulations at her dugout.
Ball reaches F2 who has foot on plate (it is clear to me that she is appealing the missed base) and (accidentally) tags BR before she can re-touch home plate.

Question, at what point (if any) can this live ball missed base appeal be accomplished by tagging the base only (and making the appeal known).

Is it actually entering dead ball territory?

Where is it described in each of the books?

Thanks

NCAA:
12.22 Missing a Base
12.22.2.1 If a runner misses home plate and the fielder misses or makes no attempt to tag the runner, the umpire should make a safe signal and declare "No tag." If an appeal play is made (that is by tagging either the runner or home plate), the umpire should then make a decision on the appeal.
7.1.2.1 Live Ball Appeal
A live-ball appeal is made by touching the base the runner missed or left before a fly ball was first touched or by tagging the runner who committed the violation, provided she is still on the playing field, and indicating to the umpire what is being appealed (if necessary).
2010 CCA Softball Umpires Manual:
6.1 Appeal Plays (Pg.68-70)
LIVE BALL or DEAD BALL-appeals that can be made during either a live ball or dead ball
> Missing a base
> Leaving a base on a caught fly ball before the ball is first touched
live ball appeals may be made by bringing the ball to the base missed or left too soon or by tagging the runner with the ball.....

Based on your sitch...under NCAA rules you have an out.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

NCAA:
12.22 Missing a Base
12.22.2.1 If a runner misses home plate and the fielder misses or makes no attempt to tag the runner, the umpire should make a safe signal and declare "No tag." If an appeal play is made (that is by tagging either the runner or home plate), the umpire should then make a decision on the appeal.
7.1.2.1 Live Ball Appeal
A live-ball appeal is made by touching the base the runner missed or left before a fly ball was first touched or by tagging the runner who committed the violation, provided she is still on the playing field, and indicating to the umpire what is being appealed (if necessary).
2010 CCA Softball Umpires Manual:
6.1 Appeal Plays (Pg.68-70)
LIVE BALL or DEAD BALL-appeals that can be made during either a live ball or dead ball
> Missing a base
> Leaving a base on a caught fly ball before the ball is first touched
live ball appeals may be made by bringing the ball to the base missed or left too soon or by tagging the runner with the ball.....

Based on your sitch...under NCAA rules you have an out.

Thank you...
Your reference is what I was looking for.

Thanks to others for the responses.

Rich Ives was on the track as to what prompted my question.
In my particular situation, we had the out no matter what, but I was prompted to think about what (if any restrictions) there were on the live ball, missed base appeal.

[IRISHMAFIA]

RULE 7

Appeals and Protests

7.1 Appeals

7.1.1 An appeal is a play or rule violation on which the umpire does not make a ruling until requested by a coach or player. The following may be appealed:

7.1.1.2.5 A runner is assumed to have touched the base and if a

proper appeal is not made, the runner is safe.

(a) If a runner misses home plate and the catcher misses or makes

no attempt to tag the runner, the umpire shall make a safe
signal and declare “No tag.” If a proper appeal is made, by
tagging the plate or runner before the runner returns to the
plate, the runner shall be declared out.

Here is the problem I have with the NCAA ruling. I understand this is what they want and that is the way it should be handled when working their game.

If, by rule, the runner is assumed to have touched the base and the umpire is not to make a ruling until requested, what do they call an umpire verbalizing "No tag"? Casual conversation? IMO, this is dictated coaching.

I fully expect a few people to attempt to justify it. Don't waste your time or keystrokes, it's not worth the trouble. It is just my opinion, which I believe we are still permitted at least for now.

However, I feel this as ludicrous as pointing foul on a ball near the line.

Do they think that "no tag" is going to just be overlooked and the player and coaches are going to just say, "oh well, I missed the tag"? GMAFB!!

You know damn well this is an indicator which the catcher has been told by the coach to continue playing and block any access to the plate immediately upon hearing the umpire say anything other than safe or out.

Like I said, just my opinion.

[shagpal]

declaring "no tag" is a huge poker tell, and far more message than a simple safe call, so I am in agreement with you. but as you'll recall in a previous thread, ump tom asked what a simple safe call communicates to everyone, coaches, players and possibly fans. in this situation, does safe = runner touched home plate? imagine a viewer watching that on TV w/ instant replay.

Appeal a turn toward second.

it appears that as one moves up the umpiring food chain, higher level softball expects more "lines" from umpires than simple safe/out calls, or simply "doing nothing". ASA & NFHS games will most likely never be broadcast on ESPN (ESPN36 in the future perhaps, who knows?) , but the trend seems to be calls tailored to be more palatable for a wider audience.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

RULE 7

Appeals and Protests

7.1 Appeals

7.1.1 An appeal is a play or rule violation on which the umpire does not make a ruling until requested by a coach or player. The following may be appealed:

7.1.1.2.5 A runner is assumed to have touched the base and if a

proper appeal is not made, the runner is safe.

(a) If a runner misses home plate and the catcher misses or makes

no attempt to tag the runner, the umpire shall make a safe
signal and declare “No tag.” If a proper appeal is made, by
tagging the plate or runner before the runner returns to the
plate, the runner shall be declared out.

Here is the problem I have with the NCAA ruling. I understand this is what they want and that is the way it should be handled when working their game.

If, by rule, the runner is assumed to have touched the base and the umpire is not to make a ruling until requested, what do they call an umpire verbalizing "No tag"? Casual conversation? IMO, this is dictated coaching.

I fully expect a few people to attempt to justify it. Don't waste your time or keystrokes, it's not worth the trouble. It is just my opinion, which I believe we are still permitted at least for now.

However, I feel this as ludicrous as pointing foul on a ball near the line.

Do they think that "no tag" is going to just be overlooked and the player and coaches are going to just say, "oh well, I missed the tag"? GMAFB!!

You know damn well this is an indicator which the catcher has been told by the coach to continue playing and block any access to the plate immediately upon hearing the umpire say anything other than safe or out.

Like I said, just my opinion.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

RULE 7

Appeals and Protests

7.1 Appeals

7.1.1 An appeal is a play or rule violation on which the umpire does not make a ruling until requested by a coach or player. The following may be appealed:

7.1.1.2.5 A runner is assumed to have touched the base and if a

proper appeal is not made, the runner is safe.

(a) If a runner misses home plate and the catcher misses or makes

no attempt to tag the runner, the umpire shall make a safe
signal and declare ?No tag.? If a proper appeal is made, by
tagging the plate or runner before the runner returns to the
plate, the runner shall be declared out.

Here is the problem I have with the NCAA ruling. I understand this is what they want and that is the way it should be handled when working their game.

If, by rule, the runner is assumed to have touched the base and the umpire is not to make a ruling until requested, what do they call an umpire verbalizing "No tag"? Casual conversation? IMO, this is dictated coaching.

I fully expect a few people to attempt to justify it. Don't waste your time or keystrokes, it's not worth the trouble. It is just my opinion, which I believe we are still permitted at least for now.

However, I feel this as ludicrous as pointing foul on a ball near the line.

Do they think that "no tag" is going to just be overlooked and the player and coaches are going to just say, "oh well, I missed the tag"? GMAFB!!

You know damn well this is an indicator which the catcher has been told by the coach to continue playing and block any access to the plate immediately upon hearing the umpire say anything other than safe or out.

Like I said, just my opinion.

An easy way around this would be to simply call no tag whether they miss the base or not. I had to read this a couple of times because of assuming thta is what they'd do, to get what you were saying.
________
Live sex

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by youngump

An easy way around this would be to simply call no tag whether they miss the base or not. I had to read this a couple of times because of assuming thta is what they'd do, to get what you were saying.

But would not comply with the (stupid) rule. Only if the runner misses the plate, and there is no tag (attempted or not) does the rule state the umpire is make a declaration.

I promise I pissed off many the year they made this a rule by asking why we didn't just tell the defense "SHE MISSED THE PLATE!!!".

So much for an appeal for a missed base being a play where the umpire does not make a ruling unless asked. In the NCAA, that is only true for 3 of the 4 bases; on the fourth, we tell them to appeal!!. Because they say so!!

Not a mechanic (which you could ignore without penalty, but at your own peril). By rule, so your failure to comply is protestable.

[outathm]

I was right there next to you Steve, however, this weekend I used the Rule properly and no one said a word. Run scored.

The rule is only as good as the coach' knowledge of the same.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by outathm

...The rule is only as good as the coach' knowledge of the same.

If that's the case, then the rules suck!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by outathm

I was right there next to you Steve, however, this weekend I used the Rule properly and no one said a word. Run scored.

The rule is only as good as the coach' knowledge of the same.

I guess it should be noted that in some levels umpires will use the term "no tag" when the ball beats a runner at a base (including home), but the tag is missed. However, usually that is followed by a safe signal and call.

Though better coaching of the catcher should resolve any issue of confusion, I can see where the two could be confused.

Come to think of it, on a miss-n-miss play, if the umpire is going to declare "no tag", why is s/he not also declaring "no touch" to equalize any perceived benefit the defense may contrive by the prescribed declaration?

[rybo]

Why is a missed home plate situation any different then a missed base, do you say anything when a runner misses 1st, 2nd or 3rd base?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by rybo

Why is a missed home plate situation any different then a missed base, do you say anything when a runner misses 1st, 2nd or 3rd base?

Other than the fact they are not required to keep contact with the plate

Mostly, it is not much different.